How do we put an end to excess horses?

[charlie]

In case you didn't get you HSUS email, today is "Spay Day". Spay Day is a day that veterinarians and others from all over the country reduce their normal fees on spays and neuters for dogs and cats. And many doctors like the small animal hospital where I put in a few hours a week, blocked out even more time to perform additional spays and neuters. This is how many are trying to end over population of dogs and cats.

My question is why can't we do this with horses? If veterinarians, clubs, associations, registries, rescues, HSUS & horse lovers in general came together one day a year to help put an end to over population of horses in the U.S. would that make an impact? I'm only talking making more geldings not spaying mares. Would "Have you hugged your GELDING toDAY?" (just a name I'm throwing out there) be something that would catch on?

Just for your information, I called Pilchuck (my vets) and inquired as to what a "normal" castration would cost. It would cost you $350-$400 to geld a stallion with them today. Those of us in the area know Pilchuck Veterinary Hospital is at the high-end of the spectrum.

What do you think? Or have you thought about other ways of putting an end to our horses shipping to slaughter?

Another question for you, in your opinion, which breeds, disciplines or breed associations do you see as the worst offender to this problem?

[horselovin]

Hmmm....that's a really interesting idea. Sounds like a good idea but I wonder how long it would take to make a significant difference(not that any difference isn't good). So I don't know.

One industry that I think has a big impact would be horse racing. These horses are bred to race and if they don't perform, which a larger number of them don't, then they are sold. I think another thing that makes a big impact is back yard breeding by uneducated people. There are obviously a large number of contributors to this issue and it is not entirely either of these two segments but many others as well.

[cybercat]

Check the Strawberry Mountain Mustangs website....I think Darla still has the information up there...she knows of a program (national) that someone started where you can get some reimbursements for castration of horses...

Strawberry Mountain Mustangs has restricted amounts of available time, so she doesn't post on RO at this time.

[TashGaia]

In my area all dogs have to be licensed and intact dogs cost more to license ($20 for neutered dogs and $50 for intact dogs), and the extra money for the intact dogs goes towards spaying and neutering. Why can't something similar be done with horses?

[Admin]

Because horses ARE NOT considered pets. They are considered property/livestock. That's the sad reason they are sent to slaughter.

Our vet charges around $250.00 for a normal weight horse. Euthanasia runs around the same.

The traditional spay has to be done in a surgical setting. Average cost is $2500 - $3000.00.

They are working on a very simple laser surgery to the tubes.

[cwinterburn ( RIP) We love YOU]

You're looking at this problem from the wrong end of the tunnel. If you want to reduce the number of horses, look to the breed regestries. If they said, we will not register you stallion unless it meets our standards and passes our tests... backyard breeding would essentially dry up ( well the backyard breeding that is influenced by money, there will always be people who breed a mare for sentimental reasons that won't be effected by money or anything else)
If the TB's split the registry into two parts - one was speed breeding and the other sport horse and you couldn't get into the speed registry, or run in a race without a certain speed index ( like the QH's were at one time heading back towards for an requirement of the breed) lots of the TB's who weren't fast enough to win could not then be bred and their progeny registered..they would be sold as riding horses perhaps but not kept as brood mares. You would be forcing the industry to produce fewer horses that ran better
There are lots of things that could be done if the industry was truely interested in reducing numbers and improving the breeds, just as they 've been done in other countries and breeds.
Why can a horse be registered as a paint - when it isn't? There's a big bunch of horses all being bred back trying to get color? Where do their babies go if they too aren't blessed with color?
If you want to reduce the numbers your going to have to start with the dollar and work your way back to the breeder's pocket. Having lots of red-tape and doggy license laws only enhances government's ability to tax your sport and penalizes the owners who can least afford extra expenses - like 4-H kids ... it does nothing to slow down a TB breeder backed by syndicates with millions. But if only the horses that excelled in their sport could be re-bred for horses eligible to run- then you'd see some selective breeding - rather than the shot-gun approach you've got now.

[Maverick~Zora]

I think all of the post make very good points!

What I would like to add is this: IMO to many horse owners buy & sell, instead of leasing first, until they find the right horse for the job. Then sell once they realize the horse is not a good fit for them or is not good for the job

Now that's all fine until we think of it nation wide!

What I see most often is that many horse owners are unwilling to work & grow with the horse they own.

IMO this creates a disposable attitude about a horse owed by a private party.

For a moment please forget about the big side of the horse breeding industry.

So would the breeders breed as many if the demand was not so high from the private sector?

What I am proposing is that the demand is also high from the private sector, horses are bought then sold when they can no longer fulfill the dreams of all the little & grown up suzie's of the world, of which very few will ever ride at the national level. So why do some of us feel a need to go though so many horses in a life time?

I have known so many people who tell there horse "I'm going to miss you so much" on the day the horse is moving to a new owner, what I'm thinking is if your going to miss that horse so much "WHY ARE YOU SELLING YOUR GOOD BUDDY?"

Many times they do want a newer & flashy model of horse!

In the end the horse is disposable no matter how much we say we care, which creates the demand for more horses in the private sector.

[beckybee]

zora said:

So why do some of us feel a need to go though so many horses in a life time?

This gets me, too. The owner of one of the stables here has these wood name placards hung up a wall "in memorium" of her past horses. I was shocked to find the horses weren't dead, she had just traded them in. Her wall of names I think was a way to show off.

[beckybee]

admin said:

The traditional spay has to be done in a surgical setting. Average cost is $2500 - $3000.00.

Saw on thehorse.com an article on laparoscopic ovariectomies. Apparently they do it at Washington State University College of Veterinary Medicine for $1500.

www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=11362

[michellep]

I think there are also those that "have to keep up with the Jones's" so to speak. I was never into the showing, the horse that I had at the time in my eyes was beautiful. But if I had wanted to show he didnt have the right appearance for that job. He was one heck of a trail horse and loved that job. I had a friend that did show and thought her horse was the best thing since sliced bread and always looked down at us. Always wanted me to sell and get the perfect show horse. That wasnt my thing and it didnt matter to me the bloodlines or his coloring, only that he was safe on the trail. Alot of people think that if your horse doesnt have that certain blood running through its veins its just a worthless horse. Just my .02

[afinenettle]

I think folks should establish alternative breed registries that grandfather (pun intended) ancestries prior to its foundation. These registries would maintain very strict breeding requirements and have inspections. In time these are the registries that would hold the most weight. It would be an opportunity to promote a different attitude as well - like anti-slaughter and anti-soring etc for horses.

I think we esp need a new quarterhorse registry.

[Maverick~Zora]

Well I did show my little half bread pony, he didn't have the look & all that jazz but we always placed, we were the steady Eddies.

Anyway I to got the, it's time to get a better horse.

What I came away with from that time was. If you have the luck to show to a really good judge, they will give you the place you deserve. If they can't they always told my why.

If you have a really good trainer they will tell you why your not wining, which sucks when it's because of fashion. But honesty counts in my book!

I do think that some owners can not accept that sometime the fault lies with them & not there horse.

There is also the bragging rights about blood lines.

I just don't know, I have alway been the "give me unwanted, caners & half breeds." Give me a little time & I'll show you a great horse! One that is solid on the trail & solid at show & just so happens to be a really good buddy too!

[bridgetah]

cwinterburn said:

You're looking at this problem from the wrong end of the tunnel. If you want to reduce the number of horses, look to the breed regestries. If they said, we will not register you stallion unless it meets our standards and passes our tests... backyard breeding would essentially dry up ( well the backyard breeding that is influenced by money, there will always be people who breed a mare for sentimental reasons that won't be effected by money or anything else)
If the TB's split the registry into two parts - one was speed breeding and the other sport horse and you couldn't get into the speed registry, or run in a race without a certain speed index ( like the QH's were at one time heading back towards for an requirement of the breed) lots of the TB's who weren't fast enough to win could not then be bred and their progeny registered..they would be sold as riding horses perhaps but not kept as brood mares. You would be forcing the industry to produce fewer horses that ran better
There are lots of things that could be done if the industry was truely interested in reducing numbers and improving the breeds, just as they 've been done in other countries and breeds.
Why can a horse be registered as a paint - when it isn't? There's a big bunch of horses all being bred back trying to get color? Where do their babies go if they too aren't blessed with color?
If you want to reduce the numbers your going to have to start with the dollar and work your way back to the breeder's pocket. Having lots of red-tape and doggy license laws only enhances government's ability to tax your sport and penalizes the owners who can least afford extra expenses - like 4-H kids ... it does nothing to slow down a TB breeder backed by syndicates with millions. But if only the horses that excelled in their sport could be re-bred for horses eligible to run- then you'd see some selective breeding - rather than the shot-gun approach you've got now.

Well said.

Breedings are arranged. I wouldn't subject a mare to needless surgery. Mares usually don't wander neighborhoods and hook up with a stallion on the prowl.

[Maverick~Zora]

{Mares usually don't wander neighborhoods and hook up with a stallion on the prowl.}

So true!

[cybercat]

These are all great comments- thank you to new member charlie for starting this thread.

So, it sounds like we all need to work on a multi-pronged solution to the problem...and it applies to all animals that are subject to human control...there's not much market for llamas these days, and you see them just tossed aside too.

Here's just a couple of observations that I noticed when I was looking at farm classifieds for poultry. The only ads for poultry were for excess roosters...for every one poultry ad, there were 5 -6 horses for sale. I saw a couple ads for sheep and a few more for goats. No llamas, no alpacas, and no cattle....and one hog ad (VERY rare!) Horses overwhelmingly dominated the livestock ads...
My other observation is the mare-in-foal with free breed back. What is up with that? Buy one get one free, Blue light special? The one llama we bought also came with free breeding which flabbergasted me. We didn't take them up on it.

[beckybee]

cybercat said:

My other observation is the mare-in-foal with free breed back. What is up with that?

Ah, the ol' 3-in-1. Show's the mare's value is based mostly in her potential for baby-making.

[penny/pals]

bridgetah said:

cwinterburn said:

You're looking at this problem from the wrong end of the tunnel. If you want to reduce the number of horses, look to the breed regestries. If they said, we will not register you stallion unless it meets our standards and passes our tests... backyard breeding would essentially dry up ( well the backyard breeding that is influenced by money, there will always be people who breed a mare for sentimental reasons that won't be effected by money or anything else)
If the TB's split the registry into two parts - one was speed breeding and the other sport horse and you couldn't get into the speed registry, or run in a race without a certain speed index ( like the QH's were at one time heading back towards for an requirement of the breed) lots of the TB's who weren't fast enough to win could not then be bred and their progeny registered..they would be sold as riding horses perhaps but not kept as brood mares. You would be forcing the industry to produce fewer horses that ran better
There are lots of things that could be done if the industry was truely interested in reducing numbers and improving the breeds, just as they 've been done in other countries and breeds.
Why can a horse be registered as a paint - when it isn't? There's a big bunch of horses all being bred back trying to get color? Where do their babies go if they too aren't blessed with color?
If you want to reduce the numbers your going to have to start with the dollar and work your way back to the breeder's pocket. Having lots of red-tape and doggy license laws only enhances government's ability to tax your sport and penalizes the owners who can least afford extra expenses - like 4-H kids ... it does nothing to slow down a TB breeder backed by syndicates with millions. But if only the horses that excelled in their sport could be re-bred for horses eligible to run- then you'd see some selective breeding - rather than the shot-gun approach you've got now.

Well said.

Breedings are arranged. I wouldn't subject a mare to needless surgery. Mares usually don't wander neighborhoods and hook up with a stallion on the prowl.

The problem with this thinking "mares don't go out and search for stallions" is that when we rehome rescues or people sell their mares somewhere down the the road it may end up at a back yard breeder that will breed to anything, even a horse that is registered may not be a horse that should be bred. If there was a cheap way to spay a mare it would guarantee no more unwanted horses in the future from that mare.

[bridgetah]

Penny,

I really don't think spaying will catch on.

It's not just the expense, it's the risk to the mare. IMO, cwinterburn is right - we're looking through the wrong end of the tunnel. I think the various industries and sports need to be contained somehow.

[penny/pals]

It's not that I don't agree about the industries needing to be managed better. I just think if we had a way to steralize horses that we rehome it would make a world of difference as well.

[beejoyfulmk]

Is there no on the feed birth control? I saw a story where that was used on wild deer.

[angelinmydreams]

LOL Birth control for horses, we take our horses to the stud farm to have them bred, like it was said mares don't go lookin for it. I for one would not feed my horses birth control. There is no need for it. I don't have the money to spay them there is no reason for it. I don't own a stud nor shall I ever. I am a picky person about if and when I ever breed my horse agian. It has to be just right. It is not the matter of how many horses there are but how to control it and really there is no way. You start telling people what to do with their animals ( as long as their needs are met) it starts stepping on our American way of life and that is not what this country is all about. The sad thing is that there is such a over population of horses right now due to the ban on slaughter that people are giving them away or dumping them off on someone else. They are being starved and neglected. There is no market for them. My shoer has had horses offered to him for free left and right and they are not fugly animals. A 40k horse is not worth it anymore because there are to many of them. If you think about it if breeders are not able to make as much money anymore on their horses then they might not breed so many of them. It is not the "back yard " breeder flooding it all up it is the indestrery. Private breeding is a small precentage in my openion then large breeding farms. I have known people in my life that have kept studs that were not breeding material and most of the time these people do it to make a buck off of some average joe who does not know nothing about nothing. It is always going to be the same old arguement at who is at fault for so many unwanted animals in this world. The person who breeds for themselves or the person who breeds mulitable horses for profit? I think the later of the two. Just my 2 cents

[beckybee]

bridgetah said:

Penny,

I really don't think spaying will catch on.

It's not just the expense, it's the risk to the mare. IMO, cwinterburn is right - we're looking through the wrong end of the tunnel. I think the various industries and sports need to be contained somehow.

I think the orthoscopic precedure is pretty low risk. It's a standing operation and minimally invasive.

I know the sentimental/backyard breeding is not the problem, but I think the shift in thinking that values a mare above her breeding potential would go hand in hand with accepting a neutered female horse.

Actually, we're all horse people here, some performance, some pleasure, so, if you had the opportunity to adopt or purchase a mare that had had her ovaries removed in an orthoscopic precedure - would you consider that a benefit (less "mare-ish, no heat) or would you question her soundness/value/potential?

[penny/pals]

I love the idea. I have 6 mares and 3 are rescues that will be rehomed when finished if I could guarentee these mares were sterile it would make it easier for me to place them to my satisfaction. Knowing that even if they were moved to another home in the future that person would not breed them. As far as the back yard breeders we have plenty around here people breeding 30 to 40 horses each year and sending them to auction if not sold as a yearling. I know of one person that breed 50 horses each year for color babies. alot of the mares have a baby each year with very limited care trim the feet 1 time every 6 months or so. We also have alot of misguilded people breeding their horses for private sale. If there was a way to get a discount on this type of procedure I would do it to save my horses from being baby machines in the future.

[cwinterburn ( RIP) We love YOU]

The mare in foal w/ free breed back, is an incentive to get you to buy the mare, and the free breeding is thrown in because it costs the back-yard stallion owner nothing. If that stallion owner had pay to have his stallion trained and tested and certified as to a breed standard you can bet there'd be few stallions and no free breedings..

[cwinterburn ( RIP) We love YOU]

The Laproscopic procedures are like tubals... it would not effect heat cycles at all. For that you'd need to do a complete removal of the oavaries and uterus... and I have been around a spayed mare... a vet used to have one that he did himself and what he got was a mare who's system over-produced estrogen in the other sites in it's body to compensate for the deficiet, caused by removing her ovaries - and the mare acted like she was in super-heat all the time. No, thanks.

[michelle]

angelinmydreams said:

The sad thing is that there is such a over population of horses right now due to the ban on slaughter that people are giving them away or dumping them off on someone else. They are being starved and neglected. There is no market for them.

Slaughter has NOT been banned, it is alive and well. American horses are being shipped every day to Canada and Mexico.

[angelinmydreams]

It is banned in the states I understand that it is legal in boarder countries. I am not ignorant to this. A lot of people are feeling the effects including horses. I am not for slaughter but look at the flood of unwanted horses and the abuse that they are going through. Would it not be a lot humane to put the animals to sleep instead of letting them all suffer? I would have to say that maybe they should have banned the export of horses first and then ban slaughter instead of doing it vise versa. Back to the subject I was just thinking of what the gal who lives next door has done to her mares. There is something like a marble or what ever that stops her horses from coming into heat. I would have to ask her exactly what she had done.

[charlie]

Those who you have been on this board for a while have seen many faces throughout the years. Horses arriving every week with their own stories to tell, pulling at your heart strings. You guys give them give life. You take on other’s responsibilities. If you could stop these owners before they place their hands out for that whole $400 they will receive for Ol’ Trigger and have a heart to heart with these people; what education, options or assistance would you offer? (And lets just say, yelling or belittling is not gonna help in this “what if” situation.)

On a side note as it was mentioned on an earlier on this thread: My personal opinion on the price of horses, if we are just talking dollars and cents, horses are only worth what they "Sold" for. A $40K horse is a $40K horse at that moment, for only that one ready, willing and able buyer. There are thousands of them out there. No horse is worth $40K if it sold for $2500. On TBFriends we hear from Joe that horses have earned $400K and now Joe saved them. Not for $400K more like $400 or others were given to him for retirement. The Arabian stallion that just sold at Scottsdale, he IS worth $2.8 Million to his proud new owners. My horses…priceless. So in my accounting they are not assets...more like debts since they are an on going expense. Which also proves Yes, yes you can buy love. Either way we pay our hard earned cash for our horses every single day, in exchange for the love they offer.

[michellep]

If you could change peoples minds that these living, breathing animals, with feelings and souls not just worth $$ you wont ever change things. I personally made a choice with each of my animals to provide them a loving home for the rest of their lives or until the end of mine which ever comes first. They get the best of what I can provide financially and all the love that any animal could want. My animals are priceless to me for the joy they bring. Could I put a price tag on them, I dont think so, and if the day comes that I am forced to sell, I feel sorry for the next owners because I will hold them to a real high standard before they leave my yard. Its just too bad that more people dont stop to think about the lives they are responsible for before taking on that responsibility of ownership. Okay, comin down off the soapbox now........

[bridgetah]

This problem has been exacerbated by the housing bust, the price of hay and the general economic downturn. Not too long ago, the Wall Street Journal had a good feature article on the plight of horses these days. It focused on Florida, but it could just as well have been Anywhere USA.