Rosie needs our HELP!

[Admin]

shelbertk2 needs us to help her as she has helped us. it's her turn now!

Anything you can send for Rosie will be truly appreciated!!


So, here's what's going on. Rosie is in a massive amount of pain and needs to be checked by the vet and have her hips X-rayed. I can come up with about $150 of it, but it will most likely cost more(I was quoted it would be AT LEAST $300-$350). Rae Rae can barely walk, and the chiro would not touch her without seeing X-rays. She is also having chronic Diarrhea (She is on a double dose of probiotics-I've done everything I could think of). Rosie Rae has put on a TON of weight and her spirits are high!! She wants to live and is getting ornerier by the day!!

[shelberttk2]

Hi All! As some of you know, I lost my Job in December. Rosie was rescued by Debi and I last May. She came in with the 4 we brought home that were emaciated. Jim Elliot took the Appy mare and paint filly and we kept Rosie and little OLLIE Balboa (RIP). Rosie was extremely emaciated (Pictures below) and a bit gimpy when we got her. I thought it was her hooves causing her pain, as they were horribly long. She has been getting her feet trimmed once a month to treat her White line and to get her standing correctly. Her gimpiness has gotten way worse, and our farrier (who has gone to vet school) think's she has had a broken pelvis. I had the chiropractor out to work on her and Poppy, but she is so messed up in the back he doesn't want to mess with her until Xray's are taken. Here's the cool part though...Hopefully Amy Jo (Tireddog) can step in here and fill in the blanks....Amy knows somebody who is a reporter for the local news. She wan'ts to do a piece on the Equine Chiropractor business. She had never heard of it before!!! Anyway, Rosie will be the 'SUPERSTAR' along with some of Tireddog's other old ladies. This will be a lovely opportunity to spread the word about Horse Rescue and this web site!!! I was thinking it would be great if I could get an account set up through a non profit (AHEM, HYTYME?? Rescue Or???) that way donations could be tax deductible. I am thinking she will probably have to be hauled up to OSU because I don't believe our local vets have the equipment to X-ray the Hips etc......Input on this would be great! Thanks everyone!

Rosie a few days after we brought her home, she was infested with Lice, ticks and extremely anemic...



Rosie in August

[pnp4kidz]

Hi,
I know I'm the constant 'the sky is falling in with horses who have Insulin Resistance/founder/cushing's"...
but...
well....
Rosie looks to me, from the pictures here...
to have foundered, and be a pretty darned severe sinker!!!
See that bulge above her cornary band? that is the tissue balled up from the bony column sinking into the hoof capsule...
in addition, the first pictures show a chronic founder, with rotation that is trying to grow itself out... the new growth in the top half inch is at a totally different angle from the old growth, that is the degree of rotation there... pretty severe...
but, then over time, by August, you have shortened the hoof wall, but the bony column has sunken into the hoof capsule, causing the bulge. she wasn't sunk in the first ones...

now, WHY she foundered is the question....
and if she foundered due to the fractures... is possible... and would be hard to treat...
what kind of trim does he do on her feet?
traditional farrier trim? or a natural hoofcare type?
can you get pictures of her hooves?
from ground level, directly from the sides, front, rear, and the sole view?
and if you can... 'sight' down the sole from the heel view... with the camera, so I can see the medial lateral balance???

what kind of horse is she? and how old? do you know anything about her history??
what do you feed her now? and how is her weight now? last pic was from August.
does she lay down now? or stand funny? are her feet warm or cold?
and how are her pulses?

ok, off my box... sorry...

[Admin]

pnp4kidz is correct. These questions are very important in her treatment!

If the hoof is hot we have always used a small amount of ace to take the heat out.

[ebo]

Beth, which of her feet do you think are sinking? They all look different, but maybe it's my monitor.

[shelberttk2]

Beth, Thank you for your concern with Rosie, our natural farrier does think that Rosie has foundered. Tireddog has a recent picture of her, maybe I can get her to post it and I will try to find my
daughter's camera to take current ones....I looked and looked on the computer last night after I posted the August pic. and could not find a current one....though I am not sure how to use some of my programs on here.... Ok, as far as questions....
Rosie is a Mini Mule, I have NO IDEA as to what her history is and she is in her late 20's. She definately has some sort of pelvis injury, you can now feel her popping and cracking when you lay your hand on her back where the Sacrum and vertabrae meet. She also has troubles picking her hind legs up, and her back legs are 'set' inwards at a funny angle. She moves like a little old granny due to this! She does lay down, she enjoys sun bathing.
The farrier was out yesterday and checked her feet (She is in love with Rose) and they are doing great, will need to be trimmed in 2-3 weeks and there is no signs of laminitis etc..
We originally were using a traditional farrier, but now are using a natural farrier aka Andee. Andee has made lovely progress with her and as soon as I can get someone to help me take pictuers of her hooves I will. Rosie leans into you and can barely have her feet picked up without her wanting to fall over. Her entire front end supports her body due to whatever is going on in her back end. Her back end is basically balancing her and that's it......I do flexing with her every day to keep her front end supple and massage her back etc. Andee said that she looks like she foundered some time ago (Before I got her) and she also had fungus/white line REALLY BAAAAAD!!!

She is on Free choice Grass, and eats maybe 1/2 a flake of alfalfa a day split between 2 feedings. Her grain is Merit Senior and she eats 1/2 a can a day currently. She was getting a 1/2 can in the morning and night but now in the am she doesn't want to eat it, she wants to go outside to play!! Her supplements are as follows: MSM, Probiotics, Cool Calories (2 scoops), 1/8 C. ground flax. 1 scoop Equerry's Vitamins I think that's it...She is also out on pasture and enjoy's nibbling on the grass!!

[pnp4kidz]

hey EBO,
I think both hinds, and at least the left front.
the first pics do not show the bulge... the second ones do.

I guess that her back is hurting from her current hoof pain... it is horrible to try to shift all the weight from the fronts to the hinds...
the fungus,white line... may just be separation from the laminitis...
laying down is basically a key symptoms, as is hind end pain from the shifting.
I dunno...

what kind of natural farrier is this?
have they ever gotten blood when trimming?
has this person had previous experience with bad founders? sinkers?

My first thing would be a $100 set of hoof films at home...
just my opinion tho...

[shelberttk2]

Beth, Andee is a very well known farrier in this area for doing natural hoof care. I don't know much about 'Natural Hoof Care' as I just switched a few months ago! I called the vet, we will get her in to get Xrays. Her back hurts because it literally will make you flinch when you feel it POPPING and Cracking. She is completely OUT. Oh and Yes, Andee has loads of experience with bad founders and sinkers. She is currently fostering a bad case right now and the prognosis is looking good. What is a hoof film? Sorry, I don't even know what that is! Now that you mention it, she does have seperation from the laminitis, but also had the worse case of white line/ fungus my farrier had ever seen! She looked at her hooves yesterday and said they are looking good and she has improved drastically. Does boot therapy work in this kind of situation? As far as the first pics and the last, the angle is different...she has had the bulging since we got her.....No blood drawn as of yet.....

[shelberttk2]

This is what Andee told me tonight--if anybody would like to talk to her, she is more than happy to answer questions! She is an ex Strasser sp? Is that right? Trimmer but is currently following Pete Ramey. She has 15 years experience and has worked on many severe founder conditions. She said that Rosie is definately NOT in laminitis.

Rae has probably more than likely fractured along her spine and hips. Her body is overcompensating her back pain and she is trying to balance which is shifting all of her weight irregularly which is causing her feet to grow irregularly. What we are doing for that is keeping her trimmed properly. We are maintaining her trim by keeping her in a proper balance trim. We will continue keeping her heels down and continue to get her as balanced as possible for the way she stands.

[pnp4kidz]

Sorry, my last post was kinda short and 'curt', I had a bad keyboard... and was fighting a doggie who wanted my hands instead of me typing!!!

There are several 'kinds' or 'trainers' of 'natural hoofcare' persons...
Strasser, Martha Olivero, Pete Ramey, Jaime Jackson, Gene Oevenik (sp?)

anyway, the STrasser/Martha O 'camp' teaches a very different 'kind' of trim... VERY different...
They have a whole following... this trim is what I'd call 'agressive'
just the same, Pete Ramey's trim is TOTALLY different, and he also has a huge following... his trim is what I'd call 'very non-agressive/conservative'
The Jaime Jackson Trim used to be similar to Pete, or they were both similar... whatever... but now Jaime has moved left, Pete to the right... Jaime still has his huge following, and this trim is what I'd call 'mid range, some agressiveness',
and then there is Gene O, also called "natural Balance" and they have shoes as well as a trim style... again, VERY different principles than the others, he has a following in both natural hoof care AND farriers using his EDSS system... I'd call his trim also 'moderate, some agressiveness'

so, that is what I mean... the STrasser trimmers and Martha O trimmers "often" get fresh blood when trimming, and feel this is 'Normal' and "necessary", as they trim to specific dimensions... therefore you "Have" to get the foot to a '3 inch toe', and a '55 degree toe angle' or whatever... I am not a follower of this method, and strongly... let me emphasize STRONGLY disagree with actively and purposefully... drawing BLOOD when trimming a hoof. I have accidentally cut my horses, my dogs, my kids... but doing so on purpose is SURGERY!!! with out anesthesia!!! ACK!!!
OK, I'm 'back' now... off my box...
I appologise to anyone who uses a STrasser trimmer who is working for them... or Martha O... I do understand not all trimmers who train under one style feel comfortable with ALL the teachings or do what others who also are trained under that person do...
so, even tho it is a generality... I think it kind of isn't... oh well, my pathetic try at a backpeddle.
and now you all know how I REALLY feel!! LOL!!!

ok, so, yes, there are several things going on with her for sure....
and I'm not there with her...
but... just saying.... I'd get xrays (films) of her feet, at least lateral views, to see what the bones are 'doing' in there.... it is VERY important to the farrier to see these in any past founder at least once... just to check where you are....
you can guesstimate from the outside, but you can't say for sure...

Also... as I wasn't SURE she was not a horse in the first post I made... which is why I asked!!! Mules have 'different' feet than horses... so do Donkeys... and at least Donkeys DO have a fatter area above the coronary band normally... so it may be just the picture angles...
and ... I may be a long winded putz.

as for the 'REGULAR' kind of blood drawing...
donkeys, and mules are both VERY hardy breeds. Any donkey, pony, mini or mule that has foundered without a specific 'broke into the grain room' scenerio ... or retained placenta scenerio... HAS to be suspected to have Insulin Resistance.
this would/could cause her to lose weight and be a very 'hard' to get weight back on type....
there is a VERY simple way to see if she has Insulin Resistance....
have the vet do a blood draw (normal route!!!) for Insulin level and Glucose level.
then do a ratio of Insulin to Glucose... (I can help you with conversion of the 'units' of measure adn getting the ratio if you want) If she has a ratio of less than 4.5, she is IR.

OK, off my soapbox now...
again...

[tireddog]

I have the photos of Miss Rae Rae and have been trying to upload them to Photobucket, but I cannot. Eeks! There is no place on Photobucket at this moment to upload photos. (They are experiencing technical difficulties perhaps? Could it possibly be moi?) Anyway, I have the photos ready, willing, and able to upload and post. Just be patient ...

Andee is a phenomenal natural hoof trimmer and approaches hooves from all angles, depending on the horse. She did start out Strasser trained, but has adopted and now trims using other methods. One of the things I love most about Andee is that she looks at the entire horse - not just the isolated hoof and its potential issues - when approaching serious/severe issues. When she first saw Lady Ambrosia and saw she had a clubby foot, she went to her back and hips, looking for potential problems there. She works very closely with our vet and is well respected in this area by professionals and those who hire her as well. She donates all trims for EVEA, trimming all Sandy's rescues for free. We are actually trying to get her on this board, but she is so incredibly busy that I don't know if it will happen. However, I think getting your input, obtaining the necessary labs and diagnostics, and sharing this information with her and back with you all will be the ticket for the Rosinator. I had this pie-in-the-sky dream that Sister Rae just needed a couple pair of Easy Soakers for comfort, some bute for pain, Trifecta for a supplement with her beet pulp and rice bran, and she would be on her way to moving pain-free. But I think it runs deeper than this. Keep the ideas spilling, ladies. This girl has been to hell and back and survived. She deserves everything we can give her and so does Chel.

Okay. Back to Photobucket. Does anyone know what is wrong there? Or is it me?

[pnp4kidz]

there is a note up on their banner saying 'technical difficulties.." but they are 'working on it'...

[shelberttk2]

Andee says Strasser is BARBARIC as is drawing blood......;D

Beth--see note above Tireddogs--I posted it I think at the same time Amy did so it got 'bumped'...not sure if you saw it!!


Thanks for the pics AMY!!! Call me tomorrow ;D

[tireddog]

Here we go ...





There is another of the Rae Bomb more at a distance. Please, let me know if a more distant photo would help.

Chel, wouldn't you say Andee is all about learning new things and finding what is best for the critter? She is heavily into supplements, diet, naturopathic care, chiropractic care - the whole horse, donkey, mule ... I think any information and help generated here will only help. Also, you could haul Miss Raester to Wes or Rich would come to your home and x-ray her, Chel.

Modified to edit misspellings. I had the joy of being projectile barfed on by my 5-year-old today, driving 60 mph down the highway, unable to stop anywhere. Good times! I am a tired dog, not to mention stinky!

[shelberttk2]

AWWW!!!! Isn't she the most darling thing you have ever seen? She tottaly HATES her Rain coat I got her....She pinned me to the wall when I put it on her the other day ;D She WILL NOT LEAVE THE BARN WITH IT ON!!! Kaycee was putting it on her tonight and Poppy and Misty walked up and were watching....Rae looked at them like she was telling them to 'Shut up'....She would NOT move with that blankie on! HAHAHAHA!!! I am tottaly ecstatic about learning new things and helping Rae any way we can.(And yes Amy, Andee is too!!!!!)...I would tottaly haul her (She loves to ride in trailers) to Wes or OSU or to Rich or wherever!!! I would like to get her on a mild pain med that she can eat with her food, she pushes her lips into the ground when I try to put anything in her mouth!!! It then is a big battle between us and I end up wearing whatever I'm trying to poke into her mouth.....She is very tricky!!! She is sooooooo amazing, I wish you all could meet her! She is hilarious! She came storming into the barn last night, SLAMMED the door with her head and ran the mini out!!! She is getting rather bossy and has a total muleitude! I love it! She walked up to the back yard gate today and slammed her head into it wanting to be let in to visit! She is just awesome! Ok, enough of me rattling.....I'll sell my blood, body...whatever it takes to get her pain free! Ok, maybe not the body...I would have to pay.....

[shelberttk2]

NOTE: In the top picture Tiredog posted, if you look closely you can see a ribbon tied in her tail ;D Compliments of Kaycee!!! She has shavings all over her too ;D

[ebo]

She's very cute. bless her little mule heart.

[shelberttk2]

See how Rosie's back feet are so close together? That can't be normal!!!

[shelberttk2]

I hope it's ok to post this....Here is what we have rounded up for Miss Rosie Rae The Great so far!!! I am anxiously awaiting a call back from my vet, I missed his call earlier....
Andee C. $20
Eve/Ebo $20
Michelle P $75
Michelle/me ;D $150
Grand total $290!!!!!!
Guestimate needed-300-$350 may be more with Hoof Xray's and I'm not sure if Pelvic X-Ray's are more than standard X-rays?
Will know more tomorrow!!!

[pnp4kidz]

Hey Shelberttk2... I would go with your vet on which xrays to do if you have funding for one or the other...
what "I" lack is any way of seeing her in person, and the Vet degree!!!
those are HUGE lacks...
so... go with your gut, and what you see...

I'm so glad to hear about your trimmer... whew.
just had to be sure...
and I'm sure your trimmer knows WHY I ask... yes. barbaric IS a term that comes to my mind, but others DO believe in her and have seen amazing things. each to his own I guess.
I feel much better knowing she has a good, basic, conservative trim, tailored to the mule/donkey/horse, not to some random wild horse hoof dimensions...

and... I will defer to her on the 'look' in person of those hooves... being mule hooves... and with snapshots, not hoof intentioned... :-) as I said, the angle can be misleading!!!

I would not let go of the past founder tho...
because, honestly... a LOT of horses have chronic laminitis, and don't 'tell' us... and then, some little thing pushes them over the edge. better to know ahead, and get her diet straight . Just a little nudge here...
there is unlikely a mule alive, who looks to be in near good weight.. and is relatively well... that needs alfalfa at ALL... grain, at ALL... cool calories for SURE... and doubtful even free choice grass hay! they are made to be the most hardy of hardy... and just the grass hay we grow is WAY too nutrient dense for a mule or donkey... they were bred to survive on scrub brush... and not much of that. Try to cut her back... get her to just a 'mule' sized portion!!
the minis too...
they only need 1 to 2 percent of their body weight total per day of food...
so, guessing she is tiny, weighs.. what , 300 lb? that is a TOTAL of all food of 3 to 6 lb!!! so, about a single flake of light bale grass hay total per day is plenty!! that is the top of the line... for weight GAIN... most will do fine once at good weight on the low end... and on low NSC grass hay.

I laugh at myself here, because I used to have a mini donkey... and we didn't feed him!!! LOL!!! he didn't know it... but he just was in with a pony, and we fed the pony, and little Burrito just ate along side, and did just fine! Fat as a matter of fact...!!! hehe.. and sassy too!! but... my feed guy always wanted to throw him his own flake... I held the line... no... just let him share... because, knowing MY feed guy... one flake would give mr burrito 12 to 15 lb of hay a day!!! LOL!!! the fat pony needed less... and the donkey only needed 3 lb per day... so a flake for them to share was MORE than enough! I miss my burrito... .... he went to a great home to learn to drive a little cart... he needed a job. he was just a baby when I had him.... I needed an old donkey... this little young guy just needed more to do...

Good luck with her, she IS a cutie... and she does stand under herself. Donkeys are very cowhocked tho, so are most mules... so don't hold that against her comfort in the long run...
you can get bute in powder form so you can add it to a bit of hay pellets to give her comfort if the vet says it's ok...
I wish I could help you with funds...
but I'm trying to get enough up to save Mistletoe...
my jingles are with you... let us know!

[ebo]

I taught Irish (aka Crazy Red) to take a syringe with syringes upon syringes of molasses and applesauce. Put a dab on finger, rub it on her lips, repeat ad infinitum, gradually graduated to putting a drop in her mouth with the syringe, repeat ad infinitum. Finally, finally she is happy to have the syringe in her mouth, especially if I smear a little syrup on the outside of the nozzle.

Miss Hermien was also taught to accept a syringe in that fashion, but it kind of backfired because she now clamps onto syringes and won't let go!. Yum, yum, yum. Tough to get it out of her mouth! LOL

[malina]

they do not do X rays of pelvis or hip,she would have to go to Pullman for Bone scan...in my opinion....

[jenm]

This little gal is so d**n cute! I'd like to help out with $20.00 toward her treatment. Where are we sending it?

[shelberttk2]

Little Miss Rosie Rae Raes appointment for her first evaluation is scheduled for Tuesday at 11am!! Andee and Debi will be going (Any other fans want to go...ahem...Amy Jo? ;D) Rosie funds can be sent to [e-mail] via paypal or if you would like to snail mail, I can send you my vet's addy!! Thanks Jen!!!!!!!!!!! anything at this point is very helpful, I have a feeling that this is just the beginning....!!! Isn't Rosie the most Darling thing you have ever seen? She has the silliest personality!!!!

[shelberttk2]

Keep your fingers crossed, Rosie's appt. is tomorrow!!! I am praying the vet will be able to help her, she is in so much pain!!!

[cybercat]

Chel, any news about sweet Rosie?

[shelberttk2]

Little Miss Rosie had her vet appointment today. Doctor Violet thought she was quite "Charming" ;D I don't know the proper lingo, but in a nutshell here is what we found out...... Doctor Violet worked on her for 2 hours, he did a complete lameness/physical exam and took X-Rays of her front feet. Our farrier will stop by to look at them and treat her hoof condition accordingly. Her coffin bones have rotated--Her right hoof is the worse, the tip of the coffin bone looks like it has corroded off. He also did a complete CBC, Blood chemistry panel, fecal etc. The fecal was clear, and we will know tomorrow what her blood work shows. Doctor violet did a rectal exam to feel the ligaments etc. around her pelvis (Which is noticeably crooked) while having Debi walk her forward. Rosie looked back at him like "WHAT? YOU WANT ME TO WALK WHILE THIS GUY HAS HIS ARM UP MY BUM?!?!" She was a complete doll, and stepped forward at a quick pace while Doctor Violet was asking Debi to slow her down...Rosie would have no part of slowing down.... I have never seen her move so quick!! Anyway, He popped her leg into place a bit but said that she has had the injury for so many years that the hip being out of joint has caused her body to calcify and form a new 'socket'. He truly does not think that Chiropractor work would work on her, but highly recommends massage therapy and acupuncture which we will try next. He believes she was in some sort of horrendous wreck or??? She was cracking and popping with every movement......Doctor Violet wants me to try giving her one gram of the flavored, powdered bute with her morning meal for 5 continuous days, then to give her a break for a day and continue on....At this point, we need to keep her comfortable. Rosie also has the beginnings of a cataract in one eye and he believes she is in her 20's. Hopefully Debi will be able to step in here and fill you guys on the technical terminology.....My mind pretty much shut down when I heard there was really nothing we could do to help her. It was all I could do to keep from crying.....On the lighter side of things, when we went to look at the films, we left Rosie in the exam room. The vet tech said she would hang on to her....apparently the tech realized Rosie wasn't going anywhere because 10 minutes later when we returned, she was standing in the same spot looking at us like we were big jerks for leaving her!!! This is the one time I have truly regretted turning our ramp trailer door into a 'swing' door...She had a horrible time getting in and out (we parked on a hill to make it easier) she literally drug her left hind leg when she got out, as she was unable to lift it I feel horrible for this little girl and am praying the bute works......When we got her loaded into the trailer after the exam, she was sweating and quivering in pain so Doctor Violet went out and gave her a shot of Banamine. When we got her home she was doing great, and was ecstatic to see her friends!! I have never seen her this 'perky' looking! The Banamine must have really worked!!! Poppy was waiting by the fence happy to see her, even though she is a WITCH to her usually! Any input on this would be wonderful, I am still debating on whether or not I should take her up to OSU and have her X-rayed etc. even though Dr. Violet said there wouldn't be much we could do for her.......

Modified to add....Today's vet bill was $311.00(I didn't think this was bad considering all that was done--A breakdown below) and a Float will be scheduled later in the month (Rosie, Misty and Poppy will all have teeth done)

Lameness/Physical Exam $50.00
Medical Palpate (Rectal) $30.00
CBC $28.00
Blood Chem. Profile $48.00
Fecal Examination $20.00
Radiograph (2 views) $100.00
Banamine $15.00
Bute Powder $30.00
I didn't think this was bad at all.....THANK YOU SO MUCH EVE AND MICHELLE FOR HELPING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
ACUPUNCTURE AND TEETHIES WILL BE NEXT!!!!!!!!!

[ljbrooks]

Hi Chel. Rosie is the cutest little thing. I wish the vet's diagnosis had been better. I agree that $311 seems really reasonable considering all that was done.

I hope she can get comfortable on the bute. Good luck.

[wendyp]

Hi Chel,

I'm sorry the diagnosis wasn't better............

I know it's tempting to take her to OSU for more tests, but if there is nothing that can help except pain meds, then it might not really matter *what* is wrong....... I guess sometimes we have to accept that knowing what's wrong isn't going to make it better. Personally, I think the best thing you can do for Rosie is to keep her comfortable for as long as possible, and when the time comes that she isn't comfortable, then do what's best for her and put her down. I have a 35.5 year old mare that has been 'off' on her right front for several years. When she has a really bad day, I give her bute. But if she is walking okay, and wants to go out in the pasture with the other horses, then I figure that's a good day for her. She eats good, still has teeth, and she will let me know when it's too much for her, and I will have her put down...............Rosie will tell you when enough is enough, but until then, bute her, and enjoy her (accupuncture might help, but also might be expensive!). When you get over this way, I will introduce you to my Vet/Chiro/Accupuncturist....he's a great guy, but kinda spendy!!!

Best wishes............

WendyP/Bend, OR