Deleted by shadowstormwolf

[shadowstormwolf]

[shadowstormwolf]

deleted since pics had to be deleted from my picturetrail account so i could load other ones so they were just empty boxes

[lorsadoon]

Is that a diaper on the goat??

[Tockita]

On the DNA.. the mare and stud both need to have had DNA submitted to be checked for QH type DNA before they will register any foals by them.

I'm guessing since the new owner didn't want the foal she has no reason to DNA the mare. Your best bet will be to talk to her about pulling the hair if you order and pay for the DNA kit.

You do not need to DNA the foal unless you plan to breed her. (I have to do Haydens DNA for the only foal she will most likely ever have, but he's a keeper!)

[nic]

If the mare was bred then her old owners should have had her DNA test done if they were planning on registering the foal. Try contacting AQHA to see if she is already DNA typed.

[earlybp]

That goat is about the cutest thing I've ever seen.

[Tockita]

Jun 21, 2008 20:45:34 GMT -5 nic said:

If the mare was bred then her old owners should have had her DNA test done if they were planning on registering the foal. Try contacting AQHA to see if she is already DNA typed.

So do they not know if the mare is DNA typed yet? I thought she knew it hadn't. I believe you can verify DNA or not on the AQHA site but it might be a member only function.

[wendyp]

It looks to me like your filly is 'over in the knees'. If you compare how she looks standing with her knees *not* bent, compared to the pic Tockita posted of her colt, you can see that your girl looks like her knees don't go as far back (and lock in place), they look like they are still a little bent.

I have no idea if this is something she will out grow or not..............I have been adult horses that are still over in the knee, and most seem to be fine, but I wouldn't imagine it depends on the degree of the problem...........

WendyP/Bend, OR

[nic]

Jun 21, 2008 22:51:57 GMT -5 Tockita said:

Jun 21, 2008 20:45:34 GMT -5 nic said:

If the mare was bred then her old owners should have had her DNA test done if they were planning on registering the foal. Try contacting AQHA to see if she is already DNA typed.

So do they not know if the mare is DNA typed yet? I thought she knew it hadn't. I believe you can verify DNA or not on the AQHA site but it might be a member only function.

I looked back at the post right after she got the filly and the mare doesn't have the DNA reg on her papers like the stud does. I would still check with AQHA first. Maybe the mares new owner will have her DNA done if she plans to breed her.

[agilitygal]

Don't know anything about "over at the knees". But, over the years I have seen quite a few of them go through the feedlots and into rescue and my understanding is that they are ok for light riding or pasture pets. Not performance. Things just don't line up right. Again, just my no-experience opinion.

[shelberttk2]

My internet has been down for what seems like an eternity. I am trying to catch up on everything. Where did you find this little cutie? Has she been given a selenium shot? She is absolutely darling, and I love the baby goat with the diaper, too cute!

[mbr]

Why isn't your vet concerned about her knees? didn't she give you any information about what is wrong and how to correct them or if she is gonna have to have surgery? maybe you need to get a new vet, cause a good vet would would answer ALL your questions, and list all of your options, I would get a second opinion.

[Tockita]

Jun 22, 2008 17:15:09 GMT -5 mbr said:

Why isn't your vet concerned about her knees? didn't she give you any information about what is wrong and how to correct them or if she is gonna have to have surgery? maybe you need to get a new vet, cause a good vet would would answer ALL your questions, and list all of your options, I would get a second opinion.

It's not uncommon for foals to have some things going on with their legs at birth. Some are a result of positioning in the uterus and just take time.

Being over in the knees at birth is pretty common and usually straightens out pretty quickly. (Dandy is one month old in that picture), so I think the concern is that by now your filly should be improving and is maybe not improving??

Maybe that is why the lady didn't really care about keeping her if she is planning on breeding her. Who knows? Your filly may be fine for a casual riding horse, but if she does not improve she probably will not be able to do anything strenuous as an adult because it would put too much strain on her tendons to compansate for the knee deformity.

She is a REALLY cute filly! I think people are just concerned that something could be done now while she is really young, that might not work if treatment is delayed.

[Admin]

Who is vetting her? At her age I would definitely make sure she was on good supplements and keep a close eye on the knees.
I have never heard of what you are doing for her umbilical. We have always had one that size clamped or taped. Usually with good results and no surgery. She is sure cute.
Were you able to reach the former owner yet?

[hayforhorses - The Food Angel]

I agree...your filly should be on a good supplement program and a shot of selenium would be good...is there colostrum in her formula? If not, colostrum is crucial. I also think that you should find a vet that would be more concerned about her knee problem.

I also searched on Google for you. Here are some websites on treatments for "over at the knees":

www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=treatments+for+%22over+at+the+knees%22+in+a+foal%3F&btnG=Google+Search

Aimee

[hayforhorses - The Food Angel]

Also, I did some more reading on "over at the knees"...here is some very interesting info by a VET:

www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/4/15945.html

And, after a few postings, teh vet says this:

"As the article states, "it is thought that very early aggressive treatment greatly improve the outcome of acquired deformities". With the approval of your vet, I would begin the other treatments immediately.
DrO"

[hayforhorses - The Food Angel]

re: Colostrum:

www.thehorse.com/viewarticle.aspx?ID=4956

"Failure of Passive Transfer--Foals which don’t receive enough antibodies through the colostrum suffer from failure of passive transfer. Pierce recommends that all foals which have not reached an IgG level of 400 mg/dl receive one or more liter of plasma intravenously. Blood is then drawn to see if levels are high enough. Foals at risk for disease should have immunoglobulin (IgG) level above 800 mg/dl. Those below 200 mg/dl are considered an emergency. If the quality or amount of the colostrum is in question, then the foal should be given stored, tested colostrum within 12 hours of birth.

"Recently, some insurance companies have developed their own policies and requirements for IgG concentrations before insuring foals for mortality," Pierce said. "These different policies can be confusing at times and can be an added expense to the client." "

[hayforhorses - The Food Angel]

www.thehorse.com/viewarticle.aspx?ID=4956

More on Flexural Deformities
Pierce said the most common mistake in treating flexural deformities is not being aggressive enough if the foal is not responding to treatment. If bandaging, tetracycline, and turnout are not enough, then splinting might be necessary; this should produce response within three days.

Over at the knees conformation is very common, and most foals improve with exercise. "I have not had much success with surgery, casting, or tetracycline in severe carpal flexural deformities," said Pierce. "Even some of the more severe cases will improve in a couple months with paddock exercise."

Owners can let the foal exercise in a small paddock with his dam; however, when the foal becomes tired--which is evidenced by trembling legs--the mare and foal should be put in a stall. This can occur after 30 minutes. However, the mare and foal can be turned out up to four times daily.

"Patience is the most successful, non-stressful method of treating flexural deformity of the carpus in the foal," he noted.

Pierce concluded his presentation saying that at the end of the foal's first month, most neonatal diseases become less frequent. He stressed the importance of the initial exam, along with follow-up exams if needed.

[countrygirl]

I didn't read the above article so this may be a repeat but I thought I would share my little bit of experience.

In addition to making sure the foal gets enough food and supplements, you also have to worry about them getting too much. If the foal grows too fast (from over supplementation and too much protein) you can also cause leg problems. I had an orphan foal and was feeding mare and foal pellets exactly as instructed. I even talked with the manufacturer because I wanted to make sure she got everything she needed. My foal really started growing and beginning to show signs of leg problems. On the advice of my vet, and a trip to WSU, I was told to stop feeding any alfalfa, grain, mare and foal, etc. We monitored her closely and we were able to correct the problem. Today she is perfectly fine.

Getting the right balance of nutrition is extremely important, especially with an orphan. I recommend that you take her to a vet that specializes in legs. This type of thing needs a lot of attention at an early age in order to correct the problem before it is too late.

[calypso]

Yes, let me echo that. Babies need to be on a stable and safe growth curve. Too much too fast = BIG trouble, especially with their legs/joints.

Lots of time we use the word "grain" to mean pelleted feed. But, my understanding is babies should not have true "grain". Check your ingredients on your "grain"

Also, you might send a pm to cutiepiepmu and ask for her input. She's got a wealth of information and experience in equine nutrition.

[pnp4kidz]

Echo the others from here too...
flexural deformities of the carpus joint are very common, and in MOST cases they resolve on their own with exercise in a FEW WEEKS...
after that, they are in the class of those that were NOT going to resolve on their own, and need agressive early treatment. the longer those flexor tendons are contracted, the more they will stay that way...
now, it may be a brace, more likely a simple snip surgery...
later, a big surgery and after that, there may be NO way to help.
let me say, in the case of Hobbs/Sundance, 10 months was how old he was when we got him and the vets were all VERY discouraged that he was too OLD to have a good outcome... one vet felt he was on the very outter edge of ok age so did surgery and we were VERY agressive with the followup and special shoeing and toe extensions to the tune of over a hundred to the shoer every week or two for months, then every month for a year... and he had a good outcome.
Destiny is no longer a 'neonate', a foal under a month old, when things are 'easy to treat', she is now in 'infancy' when growth is rapid, deformities worsen very rapidly with those growth spurts, and new growth related problems occur....
You can't wait until 6-8 mo when she is a weanling age = toddler hood, or her joints and supporting structures will be 'set'.

The feeding is also a huge thing, as everyone has said. You can't just pour feed to her, and it is certainly easier to do that.... but she needs to be weight taped weekly, and fed accordingly. It is not just free-feeding, or you can get epiphysitis...

the other 'news' is that if these knees were NOT like this a few weeks ago, when Emig saw her, it is very possible that this is DUE to epiphysitis, and that makes it worse than if it was a birth deformity from positioning....

as far as hernias, I have seen them delay treatment on fingertip sized ones until gelding, but not this big... and in any case, reducing a hernia (pushing it back in) is risky as the gut can twist or be pushed in in a bad position every time you do it, so, most agree that you don't do that...
there is a device out there that holds it in all the time, kind of like a foal corsette... so you only reduce it one time, then hold it there and hope the hole in the muscle closes down... if you are going to go conservative, please use a safe method.

you need a vet and a nutrition consult... how are the funds holding out?

[icehorse]

I have to agree with everything Beth said. I consulted with 2 different vets in regards to my filly daily(I had one of them coming out everyday-luckily he lived close). She had contracted tendons(over at the knee) but only for 3 days, then it resolved itself when I fed my mare less grain for about a week and kept them in a small paddock with stall for 3 weeks. They both told me that after 5-7 weeks old, splinting would no longer help, and surgery would probably be necessary, costing about 700. Not too bad. Good luck with your filly.

[cutiepiepmu]

I was asked to post some thoughts so figured I would throw out my thoughts and hope it helps Am modifying my thoughts because for some reason I read her as 3 weeks not 3 months

With this type of deformity in the front or hind limbs - often times it requires intensive veterinary bracing and or surgical treatments before the age of 2 months to help straighten the legs. Often times bracing the front legs as they develoop will help straighten them as they grow, avoiding further issues as they develop. The key here is to get a very knowledgable vet in on this - not every vet knows what to do. BUT - keep in mind that it is not uncommon for a babies legs to look like theya re all over as they grow. However, since this kid is coming into 3-4 month age range, you are going to want to make ABSOLTUTELY sure that you are not overfeeding calorie wise. many people blame high protien diets for leg problems - when in actuality, itis not the protien that is the culprit, but rather the fact that the higher protien foods tend to be more calorie dense. Free choice exercise is ideal here - but do not PUSH exercise.

With hernias- using the method where you push on the hernia as they are growing up to around age 6 months is very common. Many PMU farmers do it this way and hernias close up almost completely. BUT - there is still a risk that it will need fixed surgically and needs to be continually monitored because of that. I personally would keep pushing on the area daily, but prepare yourself for future surgery.

As far as feeding - with a foal this young, supplements of ANY kind can lead to the body building antibodies AGAINST whatever it is and I much prefer to not start supplements at ALL before 3 months but prefer to wait till 6-9 months. So - babies under the age of 3 months should not EVER be supplemented with joint or growth supplements or increased iron products like Red-Cell unless specifically directed by your vet. What I WOULD go ahead and start with this kid is 10 grams daily of MSM. DO NOT use a complete joint supplement - only the MSM.


As for feeding - free feeding using the bucket is great - although I know you are planning to wean soon - make sure you are adding a full spectrum probiotic to each bucket of milk along with 1 tsp of salt per gallon - do not offer free choice salt to a kid of this age.
Because this kid had a harder start - personally I would go ahead and keep creep feeding the foal-lac pellets till age 6 months - but would use the following mix in a creep feeder. the total amount should be around 1 pound a day. 1/2 amount is Foal-Lac pellets, 1/4 amount is Calf-Manna, and the rest is split between alfalfa pellets and Oat PELLETS(not whole or rolled oats). do not start a multi-vitamin till age 5 -6 months, and at that point go ahead and start HorseGuard vitamins and dose for around 500-600 pounds daily. If the legs are not showing massive improvement in the next 30 days after starting the MSM daily, then discuss with your vet doing a test to see if selinium is low - do not overdose selinium - better to test first.

also - at age 4-6 months I start offering free choice ADM Gro-Strong minerals. Do NOT force feed these - let the foal pick at them and do not offer more than 1/4 cup a day MAX even if they are cleaning them up.


Deworming needs to start slowly but immediately. Dose for 1/4 of the foals body weight(so dose for about 100 pounds initially) I would give this same dose of SafeGuard every 2 weeks for 2 months, then use a full dose of safeguard. then, wait 2 weeks and dose a full dose of ivermectin. Wait 1 month and dose a full dose of Strongid. Then, wait 2-3 weeks and do a double dose of strongid for tape worms(safer than the multi-type wormers)Keeping in mind that each time you put wormer into the foals, it kills the good bacteria in the gutt as well. For this reason - it is EXTREMELY important to replenish it by using a very very good probiotic in high doses. Use Probios gel or another high quality gel and dose for at least 500 pounds after each deworming for 3-5 days. Keep the probiotics in the milk during this time as well.

the key is NO-STARCH from sugars at this point. You want moderate levels of protien, but need to make sure that you feed a very balanced diet (not straight alfalfa hay or lots of grain/pelleted product) There is a very serious growth risk. Slow and steady wins the race, and although I NEVER want to see a baby be deprived of vitamins or minerals or calories - keeping a baby SLIGHTLY ribby vs. pig fat is always better. Also - do not force exercise - let the baby self exercise in an open area that allows for lots of walking - feed in several areas to encourage movement. Because of the leg issue - you need to discuss it with a vet and limit exercise till a plan of action is taken.

If you need specific advice don't hesitate to ask Having a bottle foal can be a real challenge if you have not had some experience. They are horses - but they are babies - so feeding them like a weanling even can cause massive digestive, allergic and other problems. You would not feed your 2 or 3 month old HUMAN baby a steak, potatoes and chopped apples - but feeding your youngster adult food is the same thing

Take care,
Sara

[cutiepiepmu]

ohhh and mare and foal feed is WAY too high in sugar. I would also stop the alfalfa at this point as well and instead feed a very good quality grass hay which is more balanced. Alfalfa is not a bad feed, but in the situation where youa re trying to slow growth to correct deformity, the caloric density of the alfalfa as well as the fact that it isn't balanced is a BAD combo.

Sara in WA

[Tockita]

My vet told me no grain for mom or 2 weeks after birth. (we had already started her on mare and foal before delivery but we stopped as soon as he told us (Dandy was 1 day old)

He went from constipated on day one (normal) to diarrhea on day two. Vet advised no grain that it can cause diarrhea, and so we halted it and it cleared up.

He started eating hay (Alfalfa) and got constipated again so we switched to 4way which made him a bit runny but not diarrhea. So now we are feeding 50/50 4 way and Alfalfa.. and what ever mare and foal he can steal from Hayden. Reading this I am now wondering if I should use a hangign feeder he can't reach??

He is pretty food aggressive with her, often throwing himself down on the pile if he gets mad at her (lol he is his mothers son!) She tends to ignore his much of his bouncing and shenanigans, but will walk right over him when she is done with his tantrums.

I wuv them both! :sigh: I guess I am just a sucker for strong willed beasties ;D

[shadowstormwolf]

:-

[shelberttk2]

You want to worm her with a Fenbendazole wormer, such as safe guard or panacur. Also, plain MSM, no glucosamines is sufficient. Modified to add, No, at this point you do not want to use an ivermectin, but the above mentioned product.

[cutiepiepmu]

Ok - first - NO WALKS for at LEAST the next 30 days - then only very short walks, not to the point of getting your kid tired. Work on halter breaking in the pasture - but NO lessons on Tieing(if they pull back they can hurt the neck and back)Avoid the walks outside of leading training - till at least 5 months. Especially with a kid that might have issues with the legs it is better to let them free exercise rather than push.

As far as leg exercises - none - but, do teach your kid to pick up feet. this is easier done with the foal against a wall and you picking up the outside foot. Helps them balance - remember, quick up and down, not too high - and do it several times a day, EVERY day. You will be so happy you have done this. introduce all kinds of things to your kid - horse blankets, saddle blankets, a light saddle(don't cinch up) you name it, let them find out about it!

NO to the grow colt. It is a cruddy vitamin. Sorry! look for HorseGuard vitamins - again though, don't start for a bit yet. On MSM - just plain pure msm. No combo stuff like next level, or platform. Those all have other things in them like HA, glucosimine, ect. All of those things can affect how the joints develop naturally and can lead to allergies. So - just Plain MSM. 10grams is generally 1 scoop a day. just look at the feed store or online for 99% pure MSM powder or granules. You might need to wet the feed slightly to make it stick

Has your kid started deworming yet??? Don't start with Ivermectin - it is too harsh. Let me know where your deworming plan starts and I can guide you. The above suggestions are if you have not dewormed at all. Again, slow and steady. Some vets don't give a rats but about nutrition or just plain don't know lol. They are doctors first - which suits me - I want them to be well versed in the medicines! That is why there are nutritional people like me

so - to make it easier for you - here are brand names

Probiotics - Probios Powder(granules for adult, but powder for babies! use the large scoop per meal!)

Probiotic Gel - Probios Gel - half tube per day for 3-5 days after giving dewormer - give direclty into the mouth.

Virtamin - HorseGuard - IMO one of the best on the market - 1/2 scoop daily for 500 pounds. Buy at feed store or www.horseguard.com

alfalfa pellets - standard pellets - most feed stores carry them. May need to be soaked to soften so baby can eat.

Calf-Manna - by Manna pro - do this only till 6 months and NO more than 1/2 pound a day MAX.

Oat pellets are generally sold at feed stores - you may have to ask for special order. If for some reason you can not get these - choose a double steam cleaned whole oats. The oats should be free of dirt and debrit and look nice and clean. If they seem dusty - put the daily amount in a collander with fine mesh and rinse under water till clean. I am a HUGE believer about feeding the cleanest food possible.

Free choice excellent quality grass hay. Many foals do better on Timothy than Orchard - orchard is a bit higher in sugar and can give some diarhea, so be aware of that.

Watch the calories as far as dense calories from sugar/starch(meaning not too much pelleted feeds like mare or foal, low amounts of grains, and low amounts of alfalfa(via the pellets since they are easier to monitor the amount of!)

MSM - any brand of pure msm is fine.

hope that this gets your head spinning a little less!!!

Take care,
sara

[icehorse]

Oh I forgot to mention a couple really important things. The tetracycline shot can relax and fix the joints, but the side effect can be liver failure and death. The other thing you can do is have your vet or farrier trim her hooves-they will know the angle to help her hooves break over easier-probably just a little rasping will do.

[toeps]

"Wormer Panacur or Safe-Guard?"

same stuff - Fenbendazole - In fact they are made by the same company. There are also generic brands.