asking for help for our foal

[piopico]

Belinda, I think perhaps you read my post thru tears. I didn't intimate you should have taken them to Davis.................I was offering perhaps a way to help the mare..............if there was a foal that had lost its' dam at Davis, they would have LOVED to know of a nurse-mare available.

[gypsyrn]

and by the way, it is not all about resources, It is about decisions and whats the right thing to do for the animal. There are lines and you have to decide when enough is enough. We did so after many conversations with several vets.
I am not going to get into more of this and am not going to defend myself or my actions further.
I do not need to surrender my other mare to anyone so they can do the right thing, as you seem to think I am not capable. That is an insult, thanks for that,

[Tockita]

Orphans are hard, and more so are preemies, and twins.

Here is an example

Owner was out of town for work when the mare foaled. Baby was small, weak, wobbly foal. When it was determined foal could not stand and nurse, foal was taken into the home of the horse sitter. She warmed and fed baby, lifting him to his feet and supporting efforts to walk. She was going back over repeatedly to milk the mare. Called vets none were available.

On one visit back she discovers an afterbirth hanging out of the mare.. but wait there had already been an afterbirth for the foal..
Calls vets again, finally gets one out to help pull the bigger dead breach twin.

Keeps feeding and warming baby. (sleeping on living room floor with it) keeps feeding it bottles and going over to milk the mare.

Called the clinics/hospitals who estimate treatment of foal will be $10,000. Owner can't afford it. After 3 days foal starts getting weaker. Evening foal was hot, but by morning is now getting cold to touch. Owner still out of town. Find another vet to come, and they give an IV cocktail they say should have been given day one and pack in hot water bottles. Vitals are getting worse and we have the foal put down.

Vet advises that preemies without constant medical care, IVS and so on almost always die. I pay the vet, owner finally back in town that evening picks up body to bury on his property. The friend watching his horse is a wreck, 3 nights with little sleep, and heartbroken.



I haven't seen anyone post that you didn't care for the foal properly.

What I saw was a post possibly offering a possible placement for the other pregnant mare... which was only posted in response to a post saying both mares were looking for homes.

Are you looking to place the mares?

[piopico]

HUH?
MTA.....this was in response to gypsyrn's post above.........Tockita snuck in in the meantime.......while I was thinking how to respond, knowing ONLY what I read on this board........

[icehorse]

so sorry you lost your foal. It is extremely rare for preemie foals to survive. I can't believe anyone would question your care. sorry.

[pnp4kidz]

I'm sorry you are feeling attacked Belinda. If any of my words or conversations were offensive or felt like an attack, I personally appologise. we (FRR) are doing rescue for the horses, and the horses alone. My help was for the foal, and the mare, and for you. We also met Mia there.

I spoke openly with you many times and you and I talked about options and what was the best course of action... and of course it was not solely a financial decision, but a decision of what you felt was the best course of action. That decsion was, in your own words, however, partly due to resources available. So, if I personally made any statements on resources and looking for more of them to start on the hard road of Mya's sister Mia who is in the same boat, only not due quite yet, it was because you have stated that resources were tight. I was trying to drum up donations for you all week... I was out there in the middle of the night for two nights, holding his head... helping him stand and nurse, rigging up heat lamps and blankets, trying despirately to get his temp to normal. I would figure you don't want to do that again.
You now have in your post above over 2K in bills for this foal... and you have said you were looking for homes and help with them both. I believe you even, in frustration, spoke of not being able to do anything at this point if Mia decided to also go and deliver.

You said they palpated Mia, and think she is at about 7 months, but it is very possible that her foal is also half the size of a normal foal due to her emaciation... so perhaps she IS due soon too, and will have a dysmature foal as well... that is a real possibility. And in the winter, foaling in a pipe panel pen without shelter is not ideal. Even moving to the open shelter is not a foaling stall. My words and thoughts were only in the mind set of believing you were agreeing that the set up is not ideal for such neglected mares in foal. They are resource intensive and you have been tapped to the limit. I was thinking of an offer to help... not to be mean, or offensive. As I told you a few times regarding helping with Chance, we were not feeling in a position to take on another horse, let alone a mare and foal now... I thought it was a 'kind' gesture to help out, and I appologise that you took it as an insult. I talked with you about what our facility has that would be more helpful to a tiny dysmature foal, in the insulated barn with foaling stall, WebCam on Marestare, a full time live in Ranch hand, and us living On Site... two adults and two teens... etc. My discussion of considering extending that offer (which I made for Chance) to Mia was in thinking you were tapped out now, and we might be able to help her rehab and have a better chance of a healthy baby than her sister. She still needs a lot of rehab, weight, feet, immunizations, worming and intensive nutritional build-up.... and she may also have a foal requiring a few thousand in vet bills. I was trying to drum up some sponsorship to help with that responsibility...

I am sorry you did not see him in our blanket, he did wear it on Saturday night, I have some pictures to post tonight of him and Mya in their shelter. I would like to come and get those items, as we want to be prepared for what comes our way next. We are happy to share and help tho, so if they are needed again, let us know.

Rescue to me is not about proving I can keep a horse alive, but doing the 'right thing' (that is my term) for the horse in the situation presented, and following the good advice of my fellow horsemen and my consulting vets. I try to know what I can and can't provide, and to know when it is time to let go of my desire to see it go my way, and follow the path that needs to be followed for the horse. We have taken on much debt to try to do the right thing. Maybe that is not the right thing to do personally, but it is what we feel is our calling in the ones we commit to rescuing. I know that everyone is not as big a softie as I am, and can call the hard decisions when money can be an issue. I've been blessed to to have been forced to do that yet.

Rescue horses are often expensive, and pregnant ones in particular. The foals are fragile and need special care. I am sure that many mares foal in pens with little help, but in this case a tiny baby was born, with a sitter who had never watched a foal born or seen a newborn foal. She did the best she could watching him, not knowing he was too small, or needed help. The horrible fate of your work schedule not being flexible and having to have a helper didn't help I'm sure! And without a home nearby with a heated living room, the straw bales and heatlamps were just not intensive enough to get him and keep him to normal temperature. And in the end the cold likely slowed his gut and caused his bloat/colic, and maybe even his seizures... no ones can know if intensive care would have helped for sure... but decisions had to be made. I did not in any way mean to say you didn't have gut wrenching decision making on when enough was enough. I know you talked to many vets, and they consulted with Davis. In the end his prematurity and seizures or colic took his young life... perhaps the vets could have offered more options, or the insight and medicine to euthanize him before the seizures or colic took his life, I don't know. I may have made different decisions, but as I told you several times, I can only offer what I would do, what my thought process was... but you had to make the tough choices. You were the one there with him, you had to decide what was the right thing at that time.

Again, I'm sorry if my concern for trying to help offended you, and if my word choice describing the situation was insulting. I am thinking of the situation, the facility, the horses, and what I could offer to try to help. If any of that help can be useful, I am here and will try to drum up resources ourselves. If we can help you with any facility improvements you think would help with Mia, we are also glad to help. We only want to do what will help her foal safely and raise a healthy baby. You now have the golden opportunity of time to get ready for Mia, however the unknown is how MUCH time... days, maybe weeks, maybe months if you are lucky. Even with weeks the challenge of rehabbing those feet, her weight and nutrition etc will be a full time challenge. We would be honored to help in any way we can. I hope you can find peace with the situation of today, and can forgive me for offending you. Chance flies free now, running on strong legs, having done his job here on Earth. He was a precious gift.

[gypsyrn]

I started to clear up the above posting above to the facts, but then it goes on and on and i said i was not going to get into that.
Some are asking where all this came from, well I was emailed posting from other people/sites where what was going on at my rescue was spoke of and it was suggested i should not be doing rescue. That I was barely set up. That I should be talked into surrendering the other mare. I have said nothing about placing the mares now, I posted earlier that If anyone was looking for a foal and nice mare we had just taken in two and at some point they would be ready for placement. I do not place them while their health/weight is still a concern.

We did not expect Mya to deliver days after her arrival, we did not know she was preterm. We did for Mya and do have a sponsor barn for Mia to go into closer foaling, but once in labor we could not move Mya, she showed no signs including a bag until that night.
As for little man Chance, he did not have a good start long before I took in his mom. Being born early was another strike against him, but did have all that was needed and requested by the vets, including the mini shelter and heating that myself, Mesha and Joey had set up. We did our best for Chance. The vets feel the outcome would not likely have changed had he been at Davis, maybe prolonged by iv drips and meds certainly costing more but not changing the outcome.
Please do not criticize me or my actions or the rescue on this or any other board.
you have no right, you were not there nor in my shoes.
If anyone else wants to make a difference then please offer to sponsor, or come and help in person. you can contact me directly through the rescue. I currently support the rescue entirely financially with no sponsors, and very little physical help. If you would like to sponsor any one of the horses or Mia or Mya in particular, please contact me through Lone Oak Rescue at www.loneoakrescue.org
I am not going to post here in the future.

[pnp4kidz]

Wow, not sure who posted those things Belinda, or who shared with you covertly, but that sounds harsh! Certainly 'I' did not suggest you 'not do rescue'... I spoke only about raising a premie foal... your current situation.
I am glad you have a sponsor barn now for Mia in her delivery, which could be any time now!
but have to clarify that you spoke to me about the vet recommending you take him to UC Davis right away, the day he was born, but you said that you didn't have resources to do that...
I called UCD, got info and an estimate, and talked to you a few times about options for paying there, or even donating him as you did your last foal... and that they sometimes even offer to write off care in times of need (and they did call me back two days ago offering that btw, but I had to let him know he died) I talked specifically to you the night when he started having seizures, and you said then that the vet on call recommended it again then... as I did too... but I couldn't offer money to pay the $500 evaluation and xrays. They told me, and I told to you, that the only way to know if he was premie was to xray his knees. They had very different prognostic advice to give depending on that. I offered to raise money to have that done, and suggested strongly that you do that and NG feed until you knew he was mature enough to stand and nurse, as they told me foals should not bottle feed or syringe feed, and premies should not be allowed to stand. You decided not to do that, and I honored that, and still came out that night to help.... I did not stand him myself, as I did not want to bear the knowledge that I had hurt him if he 'was' premie, but I did not say a thing to you about standing him. I think knowing that might have helped, so saying they could not offer anything you couldn't is kind of missing some major points... including the ability to keep him thermodynamically and hemodynamically stable... which wasn't optimal at a ranch without an enclosed and heated barn. I know you tried... but you have to know that UC Davis did have more to offer, it just came at a cost that you did not feel you could afford.
The mini shelter made of bales of straw, with a couple of heat lamps over him was only getting the ambient temperature to 70 degrees, and his core was at the highest to 98.3 degrees! That is a full degree below normal, and his extremities were frozen cold to the touch! You are a nurse, and I am sure you know that when they are that cold, the intestines also don't get much blood and shut down, so he wouldn't tolerate feeds... I thought you were aware that that was probably why he bloated the day before he died when you had to give him banamine... he was cold stressed for days... something that would have certainly not happened at UCD... and I talked with you about that a few times. I understand you can only do what you have available at your facility, but it was pretty clear that like in your original post... you 'aren't set up for winter foaling'... and for certain not a premie foal. the web of extension cords hooked up to the various power strips, to the heat lamps, attached to a metal corragated wall panel as a 'roof' was just not adequate to get his temperature to normal or hold it there...

I didn't post to criticize you, I was offering my help and support!
The fact is that you have what you have for facilities... that is not any more than a statement, and I only can offer my condolences on losing him, but can't also hesitate to offer support for the other mare who is pregnant, and due mid winter, or sooner! She also may have a small for gestational age like Mya... and may well be about to deliver! The last 90 days of pregnancy are much different than humans', and require intensive support in HEALTHY mares, so I'm glad you have a foaling barn, and have to suggest she goes there now. The healthy mare with foaling stall at the home is moved there 30-60 days prior to foaling, and in her case you don't know when that is, but you DO know that her sister delivered now, and early, so the prudent person would move her now.
I hope you accept the help that has been offered to you, but worry that you are feeling this is so personal and are sounding like you are pulling away from what you might need the most.
Rescues have to realize what they can and can't take on themselves, and find a network of help for the ones they can't take. You yourself in your first post say you are "not set up for winter foaling" yet you took on two pregnanct mares due in winter...
I guess I assumed your other thread where you were looking for potential homes meant for asap, as you knew you could not provide what they needed this winter... foaling areas. but now it sounds like you intended to keep them, and foal them, even tho you didn't have the facilities...
I don't mean to be harsh, but that might not have been a good decision...
it is comendable to have rescued them, but only temporarily until you find them SAFE REFUGE, with a facility that can offer what THESE horses need.... it is not at all RESCUE to just remove them from one bad place and bring them to another sub-optimal one...
Like I said, in rescue you are not out to prove you CAN go find them, or bring them home, or keep them alive, it is about doing the right thing for THIS horse... and sometimes that is 'passing' on one you can't fully help. or moving it to a home where they CAN help it better.

sorry you had such a bad outcome on this one, I hope it is a learning experience, and that Mia finds a good safe place for delivery, and has a healthy term foal.

[Tockita]

Very true. Many rescues do pass horses to another rescue if they do not have the facilities needed for a peticular horse.

Because of my interest in mustangs, I know many rescues that pass mustangs on to mustang specific rescues if they are not set up to handle still wild ones, and that many will pass on pregnant mares to people and rescues better equipped and experienced in foaling.

Lifesavers has had MANY foals born, some to stressed, neglected horses. I have seen pics of previous babies and watched more then a few born there. They have a great staff that steps up to cover nights & weekends if needed. They can't always safely bring a wild mare into a barn, or milk her.. but in the case of very weak foals they have brought the foals inside, purchased colostrum if needed, and successfully returned the foal to it's dam when it was stronger. They have raised orphans, and treated sick foals (Like Baby Hoogs in 08. He had a fractured hock (during delivery.. he was HUGE) Had an infection requiring long stint on antibiotics, and then got bit by a RATTLESNAKE! Hoogs is doing great but it was a hard battle fought by a staff of people.

We know your heart is good, and that you do the very best you can, I also know that no matter what you do some A$$ is going to criticize something. It just is, don't take it personally.

I think that now. knowing what you do, and having experienced this, is that hopefully you will make the right choice for the other mare. She may go til Feb, or she may foal tomorrow...

I'm glad you found a place with a foaling stall. Hopefully there is also a group or staff that can handle a preterm or malnourished foal. If there isn't you should make a choice for her that will offer that just in case it's needed.

[pnp4kidz]

Sweet Chance... and his momma Mya. (eating his shelter... )

[gypsyrn]

Beth
I will ship your items if you leave an address or leave them with Stacie if thats ok with her.
Please do not come to our ranch.
Thank you

[pnp4kidz]

Thanks Belinda, I'll call with info

[gypsyrn]

Stacie said she would hold the items for you, you can call her. I will deliver them to her.

[Tockita]

Actions speak volumes, and I am a big fan of making unselfish decisions.

Hopefully all goes well for Mia and her baby.

[bridgetah]

Nov 3, 2009 22:07:51 GMT -5 pnp4kidz said:

I'm sorry you are feeling attacked Belinda. If any of my words or conversations were offensive or felt like an attack, I personally appologise. we (FRR) are doing rescue for the horses, and the horses alone. My help was for the foal, and the mare, and for you. We also met Mia there.

I spoke openly with you many times and you and I talked about options and what was the best course of action... and of course it was not solely a financial decision, but a decision of what you felt was the best course of action. That decsion was, in your own words, however, partly due to resources available. So, if I personally made any statements on resources and looking for more of them to start on the hard road of Mya's sister Mia who is in the same boat, only not due quite yet, it was because you have stated that resources were tight. I was trying to drum up donations for you all week... I was out there in the middle of the night for two nights, holding his head... helping him stand and nurse, rigging up heat lamps and blankets, trying despirately to get his temp to normal. I would figure you don't want to do that again.
You now have in your post above over 2K in bills for this foal... and you have said you were looking for homes and help with them both. I believe you even, in frustration, spoke of not being able to do anything at this point if Mia decided to also go and deliver.

You said they palpated Mia, and think she is at about 7 months, but it is very possible that her foal is also half the size of a normal foal due to her emaciation... so perhaps she IS due soon too, and will have a dysmature foal as well... that is a real possibility. And in the winter, foaling in a pipe panel pen without shelter is not ideal. Even moving to the open shelter is not a foaling stall. My words and thoughts were only in the mind set of believing you were agreeing that the set up is not ideal for such neglected mares in foal. They are resource intensive and you have been tapped to the limit. I was thinking of an offer to help... not to be mean, or offensive. As I told you a few times regarding helping with Chance, we were not feeling in a position to take on another horse, let alone a mare and foal now... I thought it was a 'kind' gesture to help out, and I appologise that you took it as an insult. I talked with you about what our facility has that would be more helpful to a tiny dysmature foal, in the insulated barn with foaling stall, WebCam on Marestare, a full time live in Ranch hand, and us living On Site... two adults and two teens... etc. My discussion of considering extending that offer (which I made for Chance) to Mia was in thinking you were tapped out now, and we might be able to help her rehab and have a better chance of a healthy baby than her sister. She still needs a lot of rehab, weight, feet, immunizations, worming and intensive nutritional build-up.... and she may also have a foal requiring a few thousand in vet bills. I was trying to drum up some sponsorship to help with that responsibility...

I am sorry you did not see him in our blanket, he did wear it on Saturday night, I have some pictures to post tonight of him and Mya in their shelter. I would like to come and get those items, as we want to be prepared for what comes our way next. We are happy to share and help tho, so if they are needed again, let us know.

Rescue to me is not about proving I can keep a horse alive, but doing the 'right thing' (that is my term) for the horse in the situation presented, and following the good advice of my fellow horsemen and my consulting vets. I try to know what I can and can't provide, and to know when it is time to let go of my desire to see it go my way, and follow the path that needs to be followed for the horse. We have taken on much debt to try to do the right thing. Maybe that is not the right thing to do personally, but it is what we feel is our calling in the ones we commit to rescuing. I know that everyone is not as big a softie as I am, and can call the hard decisions when money can be an issue. I've been blessed to to have been forced to do that yet.

Rescue horses are often expensive, and pregnant ones in particular. The foals are fragile and need special care. I am sure that many mares foal in pens with little help, but in this case a tiny baby was born, with a sitter who had never watched a foal born or seen a newborn foal. She did the best she could watching him, not knowing he was too small, or needed help. The horrible fate of your work schedule not being flexible and having to have a helper didn't help I'm sure! And without a home nearby with a heated living room, the straw bales and heatlamps were just not intensive enough to get him and keep him to normal temperature. And in the end the cold likely slowed his gut and caused his bloat/colic, and maybe even his seizures... no ones can know if intensive care would have helped for sure... but decisions had to be made. I did not in any way mean to say you didn't have gut wrenching decision making on when enough was enough. I know you talked to many vets, and they consulted with Davis. In the end his prematurity and seizures or colic took his young life... perhaps the vets could have offered more options, or the insight and medicine to euthanize him before the seizures or colic took his life, I don't know. I may have made different decisions, but as I told you several times, I can only offer what I would do, what my thought process was... but you had to make the tough choices. You were the one there with him, you had to decide what was the right thing at that time.

Again, I'm sorry if my concern for trying to help offended you, and if my word choice describing the situation was insulting. I am thinking of the situation, the facility, the horses, and what I could offer to try to help. If any of that help can be useful, I am here and will try to drum up resources ourselves. If we can help you with any facility improvements you think would help with Mia, we are also glad to help. We only want to do what will help her foal safely and raise a healthy baby. You now have the golden opportunity of time to get ready for Mia, however the unknown is how MUCH time... days, maybe weeks, maybe months if you are lucky. Even with weeks the challenge of rehabbing those feet, her weight and nutrition etc will be a full time challenge. We would be honored to help in any way we can. I hope you can find peace with the situation of today, and can forgive me for offending you. Chance flies free now, running on strong legs, having done his job here on Earth. He was a precious gift.

Wow! Talk about damning with faint praise. Let it go.

[bridgetah]

I'm sorry for your loss.

[leosolis]

Nov 3, 2009 18:56:32 GMT -5 @gypsyrn said:

I can't believe that it's been said I didn't do the right thing...... wow, barely let his body get cold.
I thought I was dealing with people who were helping because they cared about horses. I do not read other message boards, I am busy doing what i can with what I have. I do my best to prevent suffering and provide love and care.
I did what I could for a mare and foal that were is a much worse situation, if he were born there he would have been born in the cold and mud and lay there for hours a slow death.
Just because i did not take him to Davis does not mean I am not able to capable to help horses. Just because I do not have a fancy barn does not mean my horses do not have what they need.
I can't believe this...... after such a hard struggle I get insulted to say i am not set up or capable to do rescue and I should surrender my mare so someone else can help her. I was on the phone with Davis shortly before I lost him, they would have done nothing more besides be in a fancy place and try and keep him hanging on til the last second and not likely change the outcome. Also he would have likely passed while on the road there.
If I had known asking for help was the start of drama I would never have asked.
I am not naming names, I am going to stay above that. Beth I will bring you your things, thank you for lending them to me. He did not use the blanket, I have washed the feed nipple.
I am not into drama. I will now leave this board.

I am so sorry that you lost Chance. I don't know all the details or who is saying what...BUT I do know this.

None of us were there, none of us walked in your shoes. I am 100% confident that you did everything you could to help Chance. Most important it is very obvious to me that Chance knew what it meant to be loved, many horses never get to experience that so in many ways he was already a very lucky lil horse. From the bottom of my heart I am sorry that this happened.

[gypsyrn]

A final word please.....
I come from a long line of simple horse people, we have no formal training, never did the show circuit, did all of our own care and rarely did we call a vet, my father did our horse care and many lived out their lives with us including my first pony "Happy" who was in his 30's.
I was always that kids who brought home the stray, the jackrabbit, the baby skunks, the kittens and lizard from the hay stack. It wasn't a surprise when I became a nurse, Caring has been my life. I am in my 19th year of being a care provider, I ironically i deliver babies, and take care of premature babies. After 6 years of travel I settled here in California, I adopted 2 horses from Washington. then came the pony in foal (Hanna & Toby) who was found to have neurological issues and a spinal deformity that led to him being put down, my paint mare, was joined by a second who came to me starving. At that point my vet encouraged me to register as a rescue as i clearly was operating as one. That was 2 years ago, today we are official, but 99% of the care and work is still done by me. I do not have a fancy place, I rent a part of a property and have corrals and a shed row barn built and am continuing to do add more. I have limited room and funds as we all do I have to consider the big picture before I take in another horse. I do not want any of the others to suffer lack of care because I could not care for them.

Chances story....



I was contacted about a woman who's property was in foreclosure, she had(has) several horses, mares and studs and all the mares were pregnant. They were loose with a 2 y/o stud and the 5 y/o stud frequently got out of his enclosure. There was no predicted dates for any of the mares, and no prenatal care... one had foot care because she was going to put her out as a broodmare.The woman chose which we took, we were glad to remove them from the muddy hillside with much debris.
The mares arrived settled in and the vets were scheduled to come and assess for due days. our vet tech estimation visually was within 4 weeks for the one and about 7 months along for the second.We planned to move them to Gilroy after assessments.
Before they could do so Mya started streaming milk, the vet was called, and advised not moving her. The vet was on standby, I spent the night at the barn. Mya did not deliver that night but the next, She delivered in an enclosed 20x12 shed stall. We did not expect anything out of the ordinary. It was Mesha who was on the phone with me throughout the delivery, that took less than 10 minutes. Chance was active, trying to stand, mom was cleaning him off. I told Mesha not to interfere unless the foal was not making any efforts, was covered with the bag or appeared injured or distressed in any way.He had 1 hour to stand and nurse, if he did not, call the vet. At the 1 hour she called me, I was in a meeting and did not get the call, then she called the vet, she started to stimulate him and wrapped him in blankets. The vet was en route. I was reached over an hour later and left my job...I was 45 min away. The vet and I arrived minutes apart he was able to stand with help, but was hypothermic. I took him into the front seat of my truck, it was there the vet did her assessments. He was very thin, had one ear floppy, but was not thought to be premature, but dysmature. While warming him we talked about the options. She had concerns over possible neurological issues due to one floppy ear. It was decided to stabilize his vitals and reassess.
Another conversation with her did not give him good odds, slightly better going to Davis, but not much, less than 50%. I decided to give him that Chance- thus his name. so we drew bloods,he received fluids, antibiotics, anti inflammatory meds, plasma transfusion and NG tube feed of milk. We would give him 24-48 hours with constant care monitoring his temp and heart rate and resp rate, encourage him to nurse and if unable then to bottle feed, I gave him the fluids and electrolytes boluses. This is when I asked for physical help.At the 48 hour mark, he was looking better his ears were normal, they were slightly encouraged. The plan was 48 hours to repeat his labs, which had come back better than expected. an elevated white count and slightly high bilirubin ( normal for newborns)but all else including his glucose was normal. The evening of the 4th day he was sounding uncomfortable, occasional little moans, his lungs were clear, heart rate normal, temp 100.5 but very active bowel sounds, another consult, expected it was due to his increase of milk intake, his suck had become stronger.I gave him meds, over the next hour he was farting like a little old man, he looked more comfortable, bowel sounds now less and no more bloating. Later that night, he did a series of kicks with his front feet while asleep. I questioned it, called the vet, she thought it were more likely him moving in response to stomach cramps/pain. to continue to watch and listen.I also made a call to Beth to ask if she had observed a seizure in a foal before-she said no. The behavior went away for several hours, then came back and was non stop, I called my own vet, I called Davis. Both believed it was seizures, the only options were to come put him down or take him in, put him on a phenobarb drip and try to see why he was having them. They said it would not be from colic or cold, possibly from severe electrolyte imbalance, but that was unlikely as we did not have a drip going at the time and when assessed by the vet that afternoon had a urine while standing and it was clear, (he also showed them he could poo, just missing my shoe).
While on the phone with Davis he had a sudden increase in heart rate 190's, and aganol breaths 16, I told her I believed that he was dying in my arms, so we ended the call. then that stopped, his heart rate and resp rate back to normal, his temp was 101.5. he closed his eyes, make sucking motions, and sighed, the seizure was over. I had prayed he was ok, about 20 min later he had another, and then it stopped. I lay beside him and watched him breathe. At about 4am Mya (who was outside of the stall) was restless which woke me. I went outside to check on her, she was ok, I went back into Chance and saw he was breathing. Chance died in his sleep laying beside me. His position had not changed so I know he went quietly.
My vet was notified at 7am of his passing and the vet from Davis called me and we spoke that afternoon, I told her he passed and she explained she had been getting donation/sponsors for his care there. She referred me to another vet at Davis should I find myself in the same situation again, I pray I do not.
After conversations with both vets it is the belief he likely had an infection that started inutero, and likely progressed to meningitis which caused the seizures. Also that after the first one, he was likely post ictal and unaware and in no pain, I take some peace from that.

I told you all this to find some closure, I know I did everything possible with the guidance of several vets. I will continue to do so for all of the horses including the other mare Mia.

As far as any difference of plan of care, as in feed or not, stand or not etc. Beth you came out one night, if you believed we were doing the wrong thing for the foal then you should have withdrawn your help. Regarding Chance you said what facilities you have and suggested I hook up with mare stare and use you as a reference. You did say how much help you had there your whole set up, you also said you had no room for him. I am defensive because of your criticism of the care and your going on facebook and suggesting you should get me to surrender the mare to you, implying i was somehow at risk for the mare. You never offered to take her, you spoke to others about considering offering to take her and were trying to get sponsors for your care of her and then would try and get me to surrender the mare to you. That is not one rescue offering help to another since I was not a part of the conversation. None of that was passed to me, nor was any payment options from davis, those must have been for your own options.
I am glad you have a good facility in which to help the horses, back up etc etc etc. I am sure you have a great wealth of knowledge, but you should not be so critical when other care is not in line which what you would have done., it was not your decision and as i said you could have chose to withdraw your help if your concerns were it was doing harm. I thank you for what time you did put in and your advice, but i chose to follow the advice of qualified vets over layman suggestions.
It is also my suggestion that if you go to someone else s facility, even if it is pens and a simple shed. stay with the horse, do not "clean up", I was uncomfortable knowing you had gone through the shed. whatever the reason. Yes I had a million things and empty packages etc etc etc everywhere, I barely cleaned up after the fall of half the items during the quake a few weeks back. Half the garbage of Alameda county could be in and around my shed... I don't care, I will get to it sooner or later, it is not a priority, my horses are.
While you were making that long post that was not entirely true, I was building a casket in which we laid Chance to rest. I gave this some time and am now putting this behind me after telling his story and saying what i felt I must say.
Beth I hope you continue to help horses, I hope you get your 501c3 status, and I hope you can learn to be a little more diplomatic, reserve your judgment and work with someone instead of conversations with others excluding the rescue in need.

Please anyone who wants to work with us, I am in need of hands to complete our facility we have some wonderful horses to work with and I welcome all. We are not pretty but the animals are well cared for and loved.
My website www.loneoakrescue.org. Please contact me there, as I am closing here.
I wish everyone the best, sincerely
Belinda

[caryn]

Belinda,
Thank you for telling Chance's story and most of all thank you for taking care of him and loving him. I am so sorry for your loss.

[pnp4kidz]

Belinda, I have called you half a dozen times and tried to connect personally... but even tho my appologies were public here and privately on your message machine, you have chosen to speak to me over this forum, so I guess I'll honor that.

I am glad you are finding peace with your decisions, and have laid the little one to rest, and offered my support for him.

I did not 'withdraw my support' the second night as when you called you sounded despirate, having no one for the entire night at that point as your friend had to spend the Halloween with her family. The point at which I agreed was when you were clear you could not call off of work, and that we were the last hope he would be fed overnight.
I did feel bad for him, and wanted to do all I could.
I asked if your vet recommended UC Davis and you just said, "I don't have those resources". I made a case for finding a way... and then respected your decision to do it alone at home. Your vet was doing all they could with the circumstances, often the case I suppose.

My sister actually cleaned up, not me. But it was due to your request we flush the IV, and in order to do that with some semblance of cleanliness she had to clear the small area of the desk top of dirty syringes, old pop cans and garbage to get working room. You told us to get that 'in the shed', so that is why we went in there. She was also trying to get the supplies she needed, which others had not been able to find the day before. When you have volunteers coming, it's considerate to at least label the syringes, pick up potential hazards like sharps, etc that might be a safety issue for the personel.
Perhaps her picking up the old foley bag out of the pen, and the garbage and baling twine thru the farmyard was more than she should have done, and I'm sorry if putting the few medical supplies like thermometer, lube, stethoscope, and the sharps like a serrated knife, into a empty rubbermaid container to keep them together and out of a horses reach in her stall was not called for, but for us, safety is pretty high on the list. We don't feel comfortable leaving those things just laying on a bale in a horses stall unattended. We were also tired, and needed to entertain ourselves out there alone all night... and it kept us warm to move around.
The statement that half the garbage in Alameda County is not quite accurate, but the area is strewn with garbage, old containers, old pipes, construction supplies, lumber, tools, barrels full of baling string, wires, etc, and the panels are badly damaged with many hazards to get a foot caught in, or a head stuck thru reaching to the hay pile right there.

We did remove a wheelbarrow, pitchforks, a box of screws from Myas pen and pull a few protruding sharps and a metal strap off of the inside of Mya's stall too, but we feared if Chance DID stand up, and try to walk, and fell, the chances of his impailing himself of getting a leg stuck in there was high, and had no idea you'd be upset at our doing a safety check and 'helping' in that way. I just figured you hadn't seen those safety issues, but I guess you were ok with that. I am sorry.

I told you on the day of Halloween that I would take him again... and when you called Sunday night to talk about the seizure we talked about the 'why' he might be seizing, and hypothermia along with hypoglycemia were brought up. I talked again and said, "you really have got to get him to Davis", You said you were getting the vet out, and were going to give the 'other half' of a bag of IV fluid you had left there. When I called later, you said you were not calling the vet out and were hoping he'd live to morning. I told you again that I'd called UC Davis earlier in the day, asked for their thoughts on plan of care for a pre or dysmature foal, and talked again about funding options there. We talked quite a bit about that (like the fact that they strongly recommended xrays of the knees and hocks before letting him stand), but you just said you didn't have resources. I said I couldn't donate that much money to you. The vet from Davis (Hall) called me back the following day to offer to 'write it off' and I called and told you that on your message machine. He had died by then.

I talked to you also about Mia, and we talked a pretty long time about the palpation and her dates of 7 months, due in Feb. and about foaling her. I said at that time about Chance and Mya, over and over that we were 'full' but for this sort of emergency we'd consider finding her a spot, I even told and texted you that I'd have to move horses around really fast before I came out if you would let him come here...and hook up my trailer... so I could open the foaling stall and figure out how we'd transport him. I told you I'd have to find sponsors...
The day after he died, and there was discussion about Mia and her foaling dates... we were considering making an offer but as I said, needed sponsors...
and that is what I posted about on facebook, sponsors.!!!

I don't know who felt the need to copy and send you my post there... but perhaps they cut and pasted it,and you got it out of context, but the offer was of support... my post was that you had lost him, and how bad I felt, and that the other mare was there and now confirmed preggers too. I said I was considering after being asked by others to accept her, but would need sponsors, and some were offered. I let the first one know that we were not in need of money that moment, that we had to get enough to cover her expenses, and then make the arrangements to do her intake, called 'surrender' as it's not really a 'donation'...
you apparently did not get the whole story, I'm sorry your informant didn't give that to you.
they also haven't come forward to let me know who they were.
they obviously have some very hateful feelings to us, and to you for getting you so upset in your time of grief... and I'm more than willing to drop them from my 'friends' list, as they are not.

I do hope you have more luck with the third baby you are going to foal out there. You state in your first post here that you don't have facilities for winter foaling, yet, she is due any time and is still there I suppose. I have offered my thoughts on that. She is a lovely mare, young and friendly and I hope she passes that on to her foal. I hope your Gilroy place has more support staff, as she may need someone with horse foaling knowledge to help her.

Our facility is far from perfect or even great... we have some things set up for some types of horses. Barns are barns of course, so we can't compete with the Animal Hospital for medical care in clean conditions, staff and supplies, and things like that. We try to keep our place safe. We try to keep it clean. We try to offer help when we can.
I'm not a specialist in dancing around the reality and massaging the ego to get the subject to be palateable. so, if you were hurt by my honesty, I'm sorry. I don't make my statements in judgement, but in an offer to help you improve. I offered my physical help, and financial help.
We are more concerned with our horses too, and have finally re-done our app for 501c3, but that is not our priority. that only allows you to get donations and offer the tax relief. it offers NO information about your REAL status as a rescue... as clearly shown by CBER. So if you are implying that our status shows we are not 'real', oh well, your opinion. Our app had changes that needed to be made, and we were busy doing the business of rehab and rescue, so went to the point of needing to do full REAL financials, not just the 'projected' ones you did. We are all filled out now, with all five years of information (the REAL numbers that we did), along with projections for two years, based on our REAL information, and it is waiting for evaluation again. I hope we do get it, but it is not why we do what we do. We support the rescues ourselves too. from our paychecks. would be nice to go back and be able to get a write off on some of that, but ce la vie if not.
Making enemies by being defensive and implying we did not help you in a genuine way is not in the best interest of maintaining a NETWORK of rescues. I hope you can find a way to be a team player Belinda, and not try to save the world alone. We all need a village, especially the horses. there are way too many for us to do ourselves. Like I said before, this is all being seen as too personal to you, and the reality is it is about the horses... not you.

[caryn]

Don't shoot the messenger, but I think you two REALLY need to talk on the phone or in person and leave anything text related in the dust!!! Seems like a lot of miscommunication and I see that Beth wrote that she has been trying to reach Belinda. Belinda, I know you are hurt, but please consider having a conversation with Beth as I think it would be very good for both of you.

Belinda, I will see you tomorrow

Beth, I hope to see you soon

I did not forward Beth's post on facebook to Belinda. In fact, I responded to it with an affirmative that I would support sponsorship with $20 a month. I'm broke too, it's not much, but I felt it a worthy cause. I have deleted the comment. I would absolutely support Beth and Peg foaling out a mare in need of shelter. Unfortunately, I did not consider the implications of my comment before writing it. Belinda does NOT deserve reproach!

Beth, you did not word your FB status in a way that suggests 2 rescues were helping one another. It did "read" as not just a criticism, but a very severe insult. Belinda read to me what was sent to her via email and I matched it up with your post and my response on FB. Hearing Belinda read your status and my comment, honestly, made me feel about an inch tall. I do believe that you owe Belinda a sincere apology. I already gave her mine.

All that said, I respect you both and am grateful that you are here to help all these wonderful horses.

If anything I've said, pissed either of you off, give me a call!

Hugs to you,

Caryn

[pnp4kidz]

I not only appologised here, multiple times, but on her voice mail, and on my facebook. The post on FB was typed, then had to be cut down by half due to limited space (as you can see by my abreviations and plus signs), so although I do not read anything as an insult, I appologise that she read it that way. It was intended only as written, not with any 'tone'.
I have left many messages for Belinda, she knows my numbers.
and I have posted on FB but will here too, for whomever sent the email to Belinda to let me know, so we can close that loop too.

[Tockita]

I too saw the post on FB and did not take it to mean anything other then if we can get some sponsors we can make room for her here.

I'm not set up for winter foaling either.. Don't know how many of us that thought it was really something needed.

When our mares foaled lat year it was July. One foaled early in the yard and was moved into a 24X24 under a HUGE tree. The other one was in a pipe pen with a shader that had 1/2 & full walls (masonite over pipe) It works for us but it's mostly wind management here, until dec & jan.

I have crap everywhere right now. Just bought the place (moved in in sept) and the previous owners left wood everywhere (from stakes to beams) Trees that havent been watered in a year (some of them dead) and an 1/2 empty green pool.

The pool is now empty, the dead saplings are pulled and stacked, and I have a guy coming to cut down dead trees. I still have a LOT of stuff to do before my place will be "safe" for the horses to tool about on.

Two of them already did! Got out, ate hay, found a way into the front yard, which had an open gate and went to visit the neighborhood!

For those who can appreciate this it was Dyna.. :sigh: I love that little imp! I was sick as a dog, nauseous & vomiting but hopped up and ran out to look for them when Boo said they were MISSING. I followed tracks out to the street and along the roadway. When I got to the far side of the next property a loud hello whinny made me look to the left and see Dyna and her fellow 4 y/o filly in the neighbors yard.

We are working on getting the pens moved to there perm positions (which will include a catch area in front of the corral gates like we did at the rental) I have too many smart mustangs that know how to open latches to do otherwise.

I try to pick up strings, especially since I know that is how Dodge was lamed.. by getting wrapped up in a round bale twine, but I must admit my vet bag and tack areas are not always pristine.

It's all life we do the best we can with what we have.. but also have to be willing to look around and say, I learned from this and use it to make choices in the future.

I think its just hard on all to lose him, especially those who invested time in his care and got to know him.

I remember all the crap that went on about Aimee and someone in the background was working to make sure all the offers of help got thwarted because they wanted to see her fail (be arrested) more then they wanted the horses to be helped. It was someone claiming to be her friend that she finally realized wasn't really.

If someone misread the FB post fine, if they are lying or modified it to look like more then it was, then they are working against you and your horses. (just some friendly advice) Someone who is all to quick/happy to bring you strife is not a productive or positive person.

OK so now I'm just rambling but we all understand things taking time to set up and done the way we would like them. I guess what I was asking was to look at what you have and decide if you are any more prepared should the situation repeat itself soon.

It didn't sound like you have a huge amount of people to rely on in a case like this. I'm glad people from this group were able to help you, and I hope you don't let a misunderstanding ever stop you from doing what you know in your heart is right.

It's hard enough to hear the little voice that whispers to us, but anger will drowned out it's soft voice.

[caryn]

Tock,
I listened to Belinda read me the FB post and it was offensive...That is my opinion. I adore Beth, but I do think she could have worded this MUCH better and I DON'T think that Belinda's offense is inappropriate. If I were Belinda, I would be offended and upset. If you think that is inappropriate, then all I can say is that I disagree.

[gypsyrn]

There was a single message left the day I text to everyone to say Chance had died, it was "sorry to hear he has passed, and yes I would like to get our things back .... etc" I left you a message here Beth as I did not want to speak to you on the phone, knowing I could control my words much better in print.
There is no other message on my cell phone, email or PM. so do not lie,
Connect personally??? you have been personal enough with your words, I have no desire to speak to you, your actions have spoke well enough for you, and you have your items back via Stacie. I left them with her husband yesterday evening.
I cannot even bother to read any more of your posts as you twist and fabricate. But you should take your own advice, it's about the horses, how about you get off your soap box. I am a team player, and I did reach out, next time I know who not to accept on my team

[pikzeedust]

I'm so sorry. Thank you for doing everything you could possibly do for Chance.