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Post by endo on Oct 21, 2007 15:54:16 GMT -5
Hi guys, I've appeared again...lol I fixed this time and should be around to annoy you more often.. Here's a new vid I did the other day.. www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqZxKj5SK_QDon't worry about the horsemanship, just wonder what I could do with that whip..lol
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Post by djrepp on Oct 21, 2007 16:57:40 GMT -5
Well, didn't anyone ever tell you that Rule #1 is to never let them buck with the saddle on? Now Kate would be screaming "What did you just teach that horse!" I do get it.......
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Post by dustyboots on Oct 21, 2007 20:44:49 GMT -5
Sheesh...killberg16 sres has a lot of opinions.....
cute horse
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Post by wendyp on Oct 21, 2007 20:49:30 GMT -5
"Now Kate would be screaming "What did you just teach that horse!"
I guess it's all in how you look at it - I think I taught the horse it's okay to buck "without" a rider.......................I personally do not know how to stop a horse from bucking if it is dead set on doing it - so I would much rather they get the bucking out while I'm not on!!!!
We put our western saddles (we go a little slower than Endo did - letting them get used to the pad, then throwing the saddle on 500 times until they don't even notice when it's tossed on, then cinching - could take days or weeks) on and then lounge them in the round pen at the walk -trot- canter so they can get used to the stirrups, the feel, etc, and if they buck, that's fine. The goal is to not get on, until they no longer buck with the saddle at all gaits..........
Ours are QH's and draft crosses - maybe it's different with TB's?
Or maybe it's just different styles.....
WendyP/Bend, OR
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Post by beejoyfulmk on Oct 21, 2007 21:10:44 GMT -5
great
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Post by djrepp on Oct 21, 2007 22:52:53 GMT -5
This is a spoof on the NH stuff.
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Post by endo on Oct 21, 2007 23:22:48 GMT -5
Don't worry D, I don't usually let them buck. Just using this to set the record straight that's all.. That horse HR went up to 221bps out of the 240 scale for a horse that age by letting it buck. I tapped the same horse a week later without touching it during that week and even with the horse trying to evade the tap, could only manage to get the HR up to 125bps.. Too many fluff bunnies have complained saying the tap is cruel so I'm just out to silence a few .. Not that they'll listen but it's worth a try..
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Post by wendyp on Oct 21, 2007 23:30:34 GMT -5
The spoof part went right over my head!!! Doh!!! WendyP/Bend, OR
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Post by mykingdomforahorse on Oct 22, 2007 1:58:15 GMT -5
If you're on a horse and you feel it's going to buck, pull its head up. It needs its head down to buck, so pull up that head! It works for me every time -- or, the 2 times I could've been thrown, but remembered to think quick! Em Wendyp wrote: I guess it's all in how you look at it - I think I taught the horse it's okay to buck "without" a rider.......................I personally do not know how to stop a horse from bucking if it is dead set on doing it - so I would much rather they get the bucking out while I'm not on!!!!
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Post by mykingdomforahorse on Oct 22, 2007 1:59:28 GMT -5
Oops, missed that you were talking about a riderless horse!
Em
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Post by kidznhorses on Oct 26, 2007 17:11:17 GMT -5
Waiting PATIENTLY for the new "correct" video! Are you there, Endo???
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Post by endo on Nov 6, 2007 17:11:21 GMT -5
Waiting PATIENTLY for the new "correct" video! Are you there, Endo??? I'm here in spirit..lol
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Post by kidznhorses on Nov 6, 2007 19:15:39 GMT -5
I've watched the 2,3 & 4th videos. Quite something. Patiently waiting for the 5th and final to hear what his heart rate is. So far this horse is looking very relaxed compared to the 1st video.
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Post by dancinwithhorses on Nov 6, 2007 22:25:06 GMT -5
Regardless how it turns out with this horse I am not impressed. This guy is playing with fire and not getting burned via sheer luck in my opinion. Yes, I watched 1-4.......
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Post by djrepp on Nov 7, 2007 2:02:50 GMT -5
He is a professional. This is how the baby breakers do it more or less on the TB farms. The good ones here can be on their backs in 10 minutes. The horses do not know anything. They are not fit. The trainer is always smarter then the horse. They spend hours on the trails with many of these babies.
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Post by dancinwithhorses on Nov 7, 2007 2:15:50 GMT -5
Doesn't make it right or a good way to 'break' horses. Nor do I see any benefit to the way he is doing it. This is something I would not support nor encourage people to do. Kind of reminds me of how we want things done fast and lose quality. From my experience how most of the TB's for the track are broke is negligent.
I also don't understand the comment that this is a spoof on NH. The type of breaking shown in the video does not promote a relationship or partnership like NH. Just my opinion and only based on the video's. Do not know much about the trainer or his philosophy so my thoughts are based solely on the videos.
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Post by djrepp on Nov 7, 2007 2:32:46 GMT -5
These people have backed thousands of horses. I guess that is one of the biggest differences.
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Post by Admin on Nov 7, 2007 8:58:09 GMT -5
Watch all of his videos. There is a HUGE bond and trust. That's why it works!
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Post by afinenettle on Nov 7, 2007 11:45:20 GMT -5
These people have backed thousands of horses. I guess that is one of the biggest differences. So have cowboys with spurs. The TB industry practices of backing 1year olds and professionally racing them at two causes many deaths and breakdowns on all continents. Then they pretty much all end up on dinner plates - esp in Japan. Those horses he is using are regarded as "just" money making items. I too, do not get the "glory" of his activities. I dont see any right relationship to it. Just MO.
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Post by dancinwithhorses on Nov 7, 2007 15:15:46 GMT -5
Watch all of his videos. There is a HUGE bond and trust. That's why it works! I watched all the videos and went to his web site and I still feel the same way as my previous post.
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Post by djrepp on Nov 7, 2007 19:18:09 GMT -5
I guess I am confused as to why you think what he does is not appropriate. He is very gentle and kind with the horses. Are you a horse trainer?
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Post by dancinwithhorses on Nov 7, 2007 21:22:26 GMT -5
I guess I am confused as to why you think what he does is not appropriate. He is very gentle and kind with the horses. Are you a horse trainer? I am a horseperson. All of us are horse trainers. Anytime you handle, ride a horse you are training them. All horse horsepeople should continue to improve on their capabilities and understanding from the horse's point of view. To stop doing so is doing the horse an injustice.
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Post by lorsadoon on Nov 7, 2007 21:44:01 GMT -5
I have seen a couple of the videos and wondered how he gets the horse to go down. Does he just keep the neck pulled around until the horse feels hopeless and overpowered? Does the action on the neck cause blood loss to the brain, which causes the horse to get dizzy or faint? Like what happens if you kink your head back to long and then straighten it up. Is there a psycological advantage to this stratedgy?
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Post by beckybee on Nov 7, 2007 22:17:32 GMT -5
Does he just keep the neck pulled around until the horse feels hopeless and overpowered? I think so. Is this different than Lyons or Roberts roundpenning for submission? Watch the "headshy horse" video - in 2 weeks he's riding it at liberty. Pretty amazing. I went to a Dr. Robert Miller clinic ("father" if foal imprinting, 40 year vet and one of the first published natural horsemanship trainers) and one of the warnings he gave us is that the trainer gurus can move so quickly because they can REALLY read the horse. They have worked with thousands of horses, where most of us have only worked with a couple handfuls at best. They can "flood" a horse, and although it looks like they are moving super fast, there is actually a lot of approach and retreat. There really isn't a whole bunch going on through most of Endo's videos, much of the time it's repetition and the horse working stuff through as Endo just stays out of the horse's way. Horses respond instinctually and learn almost immediately. Everyone says it takes 3 times for a horse to learn something. It doesn't matter if it happens over 3 seconds or 3 days. We mortals need to move slow because WE need the time to make up for our slow reaction time and inexperience. The great majority of horsepeople couldn't and shouldn't do what Endo does because we would end up with a screwed up horse and/or injury to horse or person, or both. We don't have the confidence or experience to pull it off. Yeah, Endo "just" does colt starting and problem solving in these videos. The horses never look terrified, stay pretty calm, no one gets hurt, and in the end the horse calmly accepts the rider and his commands Could you really ask for more? mta: roundpenning is often cantering the horse around for lengthy periods until he "gives up." Is running a horse to exhaustion a preferable alternative to holding a horses head around for a few minutes until he lays down? (Is it really that easy? I guess we have to wait for Endo's DVD.) I've seen the trainers that hobble the horse or otherwise take their legs out from underneath them to violently lay them down. My Web freaks out more about having the farrier pick up his feet than Endo's horses do being "tapped." I reacted negatively to Endo's videos at first, too, but I'm rethinking my aversion. All the "biatch" stuff and cheekiness (as he calls it) is pretty offensive, but I would kill to have a fraction of his horse sense.
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Post by dancinwithhorses on Nov 8, 2007 13:25:46 GMT -5
When done correctly roundpenning is not about running the horse ragged or for submission. I know NH's have issues with lunging. If done correctly there are some benefits to it as well.
Of course I always keep an open mind. At this point I am not convinced that Endo's training is in the best interest of the horse. I feel it is surface and about domination.
I'm glad we can talk about this without taking digs at one another. It really makes for a great learning experience.
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