Ear Infections in a horse?

[pnp4kidz]

Has anyone had a horse with an ear infection?
My daughter's 'bucker' had an ear infection diagnosed this week...
I've only heard of one, and that one was diagnosed too late, the infection had crossed into the brain and the horse didn't make it.
the vet said he's only seen them inflamed from ticks, although he thought it possible with a foxtail... but hadn't seen one.

He didn't find any ticks or foxtails tho, just inflamed ear canal and maybe some sort of anomaly in the canal...

anyone seen this?
and any guesses as to whether this could cause bucking???

my daughter REALLY hopes it can! because I'm 'done' with this horse, he keeps bucking her off... and I can't let her get hurt...
however we keep trying to figure him out, as he is normally such a sweet horse!

[lorsadoon]

I know how painful an ear infection can be, I used to have them when I was a kid. I can only imagine how it hurts.
I hope you can get it cleared up. Do you trim the hair in his ears. I leave mine in my horses because it helps keep stuff from getting down in the ear.

[watermarkfarm]

Beth,

It seems possible than an ear problem could contribute to bucking. If something is wrong with your ear, you might feel off balance.......and if you are a horse, you might want to buck?

I have two people that I have relied on for many years to help me with horse mysteries. Maybe they can help you?

Diana Thompson in Santa Rosa 707-542-4646 www.handsonhorsecare.com. She is an amazing resource for people who are at their wits' end with a horse. She has feldenkrais training, TTEAM, does traditional Chinese medicine, massage, knows all about chiropractic, and is just an amazing resource. She is THE person I call when I can't figure out a problem, and she has always helped me. Her rates are super reasonable for a consult, and she may give you some ideas on the phone. If you call, tell her I (Katie Moore) referred you. Diana is really worth calling.

Another good resource is the lay chiropractor I use, Geoff Clarke. He is the FIRST person I call when I have a horse issue like yours. He is in Sacramento, and his number is 707-451-4628. Tell him I referred you, too. When I consult with Geoff about things, he is ALWAYS right in the end, even if I didn't believe him to start with! I end up calling him 6 months later and saying "you were right....!"

I have known and worked with both Geoff and Diana (and they work together, too) for 20 years and think highly of both of them and their ability to figure out mysteries.

Have you had anyone else ride the horse? How does it do with other riders? I hope you get to the bottom of this.

I don't do this often.....but have you had someone "talk" to the horse?

Katie

[cwinterburn ( RIP) We love YOU]

I've had a horse with an ear infection- and she stumbled around like she was drunk- shaking her head. We thought that she'd suffered a concussion. Antibiotics cleared it up. I've not heard of one bucking - but with a sinus infection - I was in the barn with a horse who had one and it went from a pretty mild mannered gelding to the bucking horse from hell...check the sinus's too? The horse with the sinus problem also spun around in circles - after the rider was tossed. What does the horse do after the rider's off.

[pnp4kidz]

Thanks guys,
I kind of figured it might have contributed too, as I can see how it might hurt to jiggle more at a trot, and no way would he want to canter...
but the odd thing is that he was fine last spring, and as the summer went on into early July, started rearing, then by August to bucking just a bit... .so we put him out to pasture.
rode just a bit over winter until January, had his teeth done to check (another 'one last thing') for wolf teeth, and he has teeny tiny ones... so we started riding him again.
He was fine again, until June, then rearing some, and humping his shoulders when cantering...
we figured saddle, so went thru a few, and pads, and that sort of stuff. few bits...
by July, bucking.. real live rodeo style this year. got Jen off two or three shows in a row. nearly unprovoked bucks, going along fine, then boom, rear, leap up with fronts, kick up with hinds....
after she is off, he stops and just stands there.
he starts head shaking when she starts trotting him at the start line....
we figured that was bit... when she took contact.

the other thing he does is gets diarrhea at the shows... nerves. that clears when we get home. never starts until we get in the trailer.
he is on a grass hay diet, lives in pasture with 4 geldings.
he's head honcho, and the stud's boyfriend.

Others have ridden him and he is stubborn and bull headed.
I've ridden him, and he just acted fine with me, but the trainer last year lost his job with us because he took him out to school him, tried lunging, the horse just acted naughty, trainer lost his temper, got all tangled up in lunge line (the horse did) and trainer yelled that he should be dog meat... my kid started crying... and well, that was his last lesson with us here.

Linika rode him, said he had anger issues.
But, my Jeni loves him to death. what can I say. a kid an her horse.
and when he goes well for her, he rocks! She was doing really well, then he started this again this year.

could it be allergies?
he has big bumps from the fly bites all over his chest and neck, same as last year too...

[calypso]

Wow, with the timing and all...I would suspect allergies.

Normally I'm not much into alternative stuff, but I wonder if accupuncture would help? I don't think it's the be-all and end-all for either people or horses, but I know first hand it works for pain management, and I understand it has helped some people dramatically who had allergy/recurrent sinus infection problems. May be worth a try?

I'm assuming you've already done the chiro thing to minimize the likelihood of a musculoskelatal problem.

mta: I read Katie's post and laughed cause the thought of having someone "talk" to her popped in my mind too! Maybe Mkgbuegel? I've never had it done, but some people swear by it.

[pnp4kidz]

OK, guess I didn't tell 'all' yet...
yes, the first thing I tried for him was massage/chiro, I have a terrific person.... and she does a little 'talking' to them too, not officially, or for money, but she does, and I asked her 'what did he say for himself?", she said he was not chatty, but he told her he was wormy!!!
LOL!!!
well, that was a bad thing to say, so he got a PowerPak!!! (I already worm every 2 mo)

I wonder about some treatment for allergies...
accupuncture, or even steroids just to calm it all down
this is one hard nut to crack!

his sinus's don't SEEM stuffy...
I guess we'd need xrays to see for sure tho.... if they were infected.
he's about to be an expensive pasture pet! booger

[crum]

There are several herbal solutions for allergies out there. It really depends on how he reacts to them as to how much they will help.

You could try benadryl if it is allergies. Costco has a generic version of benadryl that they sell in 500 count bottles that are very reasonably priced.

There is also a nonprescription antihistamine for horses called anihist as well but it is not as potent as the benadryl.

The tube that drains my ears swells shut sometimes in response to molds and other allergens or if I get sick. I can tell you that it makes me very irritable and really messes with my sense of balance and it sometimes just gets downright painful, so I can see how it would cause him to behave the way you are describing if he has swelling in his ear.

[cwinterburn ( RIP) We love YOU]

OK, with the whole story... You won't like my suggestion but I'd take hm to WSU or OSU - one of the vet schools... and let them do a complete work up on him, x-rays and internal work. You've got something going on. I suspect the back and spine if he's fine at the trot and blows up at the canter. Here's why:
I had a driving horse that I made into a dressage horse and that was his pattern of bucking- and it turned out to be a neuroma ( tangle of scared nerves) under the shoulder blades left over from a driving accident, he could protect this injury at the walk and trot but at canter. At canter he had to round his back and it'd pinch the nerve and he'd buck ... obviously you can't 'train out' that sort of issue. He couldn't take the pressure down on his shoulders from a saddle at the canter. (What does your horse do bare back?)... some horses, esp. arabs swing their heads if aggitated and in pain, so that could be the result of pain somewhere else rather than pain in his head... I would never have found my horse's problem if I hadn't taken him where they can look at all his symptoms in one place.. as a whole system rather than piece-meal and I suspect you won't solve your horse's either, looking at it symptom at a time. Be prepared that you may not like the ultimate answer- I didn't. And it may not be cheap but it's cheaper than a broken kid, or sucessive vet bills looking at the symptoms seperately.

[pnp4kidz]

Hmmmm,
he is VERY odd about the saddle! He has to have it WAY back behind his shoulder blades!
he hunches his shoulders if it even TOUCHES his shoulder blades (at the canter only!)
We just bought him a treeless saddle, and have every kind of saddle pad known to man!
and I still pull that saddle WAAAAAAY back when she tacks up.

He seems to do better with the english saddle, and is pretty good bareback but she doesn't try to canter him bareback, so hard to say if it is gone then. He does canter around at liberty just fine. And... it is very obvious to us all that it is pain that causes the buck. He first will hunch his shoulders and drop his head when he canters along, and she can usually hold his head up and get past that... but then sometimes it is like 'bang' 'pain' and immediate out of nowhere huge buck. then he is ok. a neuroma might be also calmed down over winter with time off, and be more and more irritated as the summer wore on...

I agree on taking him somewhere, if this 'round' of antibiotics doesn't fully cure him, I will give him one last shot, at UCDavis or Loomis Basin Equine. they can both do full workups, and have the experts.

the ear thing, btw, is a bear. He wouldn't let us do the ointment in it last night. Tried twitching, which freaked him out totally, and his lip is really mushy, he was able to pull out of it twice, but also was still shaking his head.
we blindfolded, and everything we could try, and finally I gave up. He did get his shot, and was fine with that.

but, the big thing is , I can't let my daughter get hurt on him. that is number one.
Cwinterburn, did you have to put that horse down?

[watermarkfarm]

Beth, cwinterburn has really good points. Maybe before spending more $$ on chiros and saddles, you might consider popping for an MRI at Davis. I just looked into one for my draft, and they run around $1,000.....

Of course.....you would have to start with a good lameness eval. at Pioneer or Loomis......so that's another $500+, depending on what they do.

That he does better in an English saddle says something.....

And cwinterburn, can you tell me more about the Arab shaking their head thing you mentioned? I have a senior arab gelding who colics mildly, and I always know he is getting "ouchy" before he stands there and kind of swings his head around. I thought it was just him. So that's an arab thing?

I have a soon-to-be $17,000 "career lame" pasture ornament (yes, my husband keeps track), so know you are not alone!

[cwinterburn ( RIP) We love YOU]

No, we did not put the horse down, we gave him to a driving lady after he had a year off. We found the perfect home for him where the lady drives him every day ( she works for a custom feed plant in Ore and she drives him to work, 11 miles every day). And like your horse Beth, he was fine at liberty or driving, it was the pressure down from the saddle that compressed the shoulders onto the neuroma- so in a driving harness, he never reacted - no downward pressure. If you stood to the side and pressed his shoulders together- you'd get a negative reaction.
From your last bit of information I think you can definitely narrow it down to a pressure point - that's getting pushed on with the saddle at canter ( which you must be seeing because you've done all the logical things, more pad- move back the saddle) and you may be in the position I was, that no saddle that presses on the wither can be tolerated. The tip off is that he can take it at trot and walk- at canter he must round some and then the pain's too much.
What I did for the work up - is call the vet school and talked to the horse chairman- told him we had a mystery, forwarded to him all the history ... let him use my horse as a teaching aid. ( They love to find mystery stuff that they can take a group of vet students through the evaluation proces.) And because they got to use Sammy, and they did all the tests there it was much less expensive than if I'd parceled it out to different vets outside the school. The drawback was that it was schedualed for their time-table, and the horse had to be patient with lots of people touching him.
Good luck- I know how relieved /disappointed I was when the verdict on 'Sammy came in that he was pain free as long as no weight was put on his back - there went 2 yrs of dressage training... so he couldn't have the life I'd planned but he could go back to driving and have a life! It's harder if it's a child's horse.

Different types of horses express themselves differently- ponies and drafts, stomp the ground for emphasis, TB's lift one leg and sort of shake it in extreme irritation or pleasure... arabs often swing their heads in a circular motion, and depending on what they're expressing- other horses use their heads too but arab people will recognize a certain posture and head swing that arabs adopt more frequently.. no it's not just your horse.

[cutiepiepmu]

Depending on the central cause of the infection it certainly can cause behavioral things. I don't think that there is a hard fast rule that ear infections cause bucking - but I know i feel pretty Pi**ed off when my ears hurt! LOL

I have seen a few ear infections - but not alot. Most of the ones I have seen were caused by a high level of mites in the ears though. I did see one several years ago that was finally determined to be caused by a SEVERE tooth abscess that was up into the jaw that had cause it to burst into the skull and ear canal! AWFUL stuff.

I assume that the vet has this horse on oral as well as topical(in the ear) antibiotics. Make sure to completely finish these. If he didn't give an oral antibiotic, I suggest asking for one. There are a few out there that are a little newer that may help. I would also give a gram of bute or so a day to help with the ache - if you don't have bute, you can give 15 Naprocin/Aleve(no Tylenol or Advil) 2x per day or 18 1x per day. Do not exceed 10 days with this though.

After this clears - it may be a good idea to keep a close eye on things. There are several OTC ear cleaners that you just put a few drops in and massage. most are specified for dogs, but are FINE for horses Something with tea tree oil or eucalyptus may work well!


Good luck!
Sara in WA

[pnp4kidz]

WEll, I am guessing he has allergies that led up to this ... vet didn't see any evidence of mites.
He is prescribed some ear ointment, panalog... but he wont' let me NEAR his ears anymore.
he is also on IM gentamycin, also a pill for that now too... .
sigh.
this better cure him, as there will be no 'prophylactic' ear drops for HIM!!!
LOL!!!
I also hope this is the cause of his bucking, because he'll never make a carriage horse... and he has few options in this life besides just looking nice in a pasture or riding....
and now, I am laid up with a back injury, so not looking forward to seeing if my sis can give him a shot!

[frr2]

Hey... one way or another that guy is getting his shot tonight Might have to teach Jen to do it tho!

[cutiepiepmu]

Remind me where you are??? If you are close I don't mind helping if you need it! I have been in the situation of needing a kid doctored while being buggered myself!!

Sara in WA

[pnp4kidz]

Thanks for the offer, but we are in CA...

[cutiepiepmu]

ohhh - lol that won't do any good! LOL

Sara in WA

[pnp4kidz]

OK guys...
as of last night... I can 'sometimes' get some of the daily ear cream in... SOMETIMES...
but now he rears and runs backwards when you get him haltered...
and you can't get NEAR his neck, which is now just covered in HUGE lumps... from the 3+ shots he has gotten of Gent.
I'm afraid to try the shot in his butt, with him so angry right now, he is highly likely to kick me.
:-)
HELP!!!
any suggestions on how to get this stuff IN to him?
or how to get him 'over' this new worry about us touching him from the belly forward???

[cutiepiepmu]

Call the vet - get some oral meds to mix with feed. Ask about possibly Nexel - although it is not indicated for this type of thing it is a good med. The only other suggestion I can give, Give low dose ACE in feed an hour or two before giving shots. Keeping him mildly sedated for a day or two may help get the meds done and get him well.

The reality is that till you are done with the meds, working on the fear issues is sort of a "moo": point if you will. Call the vet and explain the issues- see if you can get oral meds and a sedetive.

With the shots, make sure you are nto giving them too high in the crest part of the neck. Lower in the triangle is better.

And TREATS galore anytime you medicate. I don't care what kind - sweet feeds, sugar snacks...whatever he loves Star the treats the SECOND you begin the treatments. - have one person giving treats the other doing the medicating.

good luck, this is a hard thing to deal with.

Sara

[pnp4kidz]

Thanks Sara,
we give him a HUGE bowl of Equine Senior each time (and you KNOW how bad that hurts me to give all that sugar? I CRINGE!!! but he's young I tell myself... and not IR)
I give lots of nose rubs... and my daughter hugs him... there is no yelling... we only circle and try again.
I'm going to try a butterfly tonight, I can get the needle in, but can't connect that darn 60 cc syringe up without him jumping back. His neck HURTS!
I am going low, trying to hit a 'new spot', but I think it all hurts now. he was totally FINE for the first two days, the third was hard, now - nada

I like the ACE idea, I put in a call this am to the vet, I also have two packets of Uniprim, that I can use... to see if he thinks that will work. I gave Naxcel to our baby last year, that is a yukky one too.
In people we'd never give Gent IM, it burns.... but has to go slow IV... can't do that either.

maybe I can bring home some Lidocaine and add that to numb his neck, doubt it will help now.
the GOOD news is that after I 'tricked him' and got the ointment in his ear last night, he rubbed my hand with the base of the ear HARD, for a few minutes!
it must feel good to rub it now, I'm hoping that is because it doesn't HURT so bad now...
do you think? (I'm praying it is so... )

So, another 'trick' tonight, and maybe the oral Uniprim.... sigh.

this better be why he was bucking... darn it.

[crum]

If you have run out of spots on the neck you could use the pectorals as a new site. This works best if he has fairly significant sized muscles there. Just be very careful to get a good angle and not jab a bone with the needle. Try patting the spot you are going to inject a few times right before injecting it if he will let you. This seems to really help with some horses. Once you have injected the spot rub a large area around it for a few minutes. Sort of a mini massage is what you are going for.

modified to add that whenever I have the option I prefer to use the pectorals as most horses will tense their neck but don't tense their pectorals nearly as much. Anyone who has had an IM shot themself knows that it hurts way worse the more tensed a muscle is. The pectorals tend to put the handler in a slightly more awkward position to give the injection though so I would only recommend it to someone I think is adept at giving injections. I also prefer it to the hind end because if the injection site becomes infected it drains better in the pectoral than it does in the hind end.

[crum]

How is the ear medication being inserted? Do you just squirt it in his ear or stick something down in the canal or something else?

This may sound strange but does the ear ointment burn or sting if it comes into contact with your skin or an open wound? It may be that his ear is raw inside and if so getting him to accept an ointment that burns or stings is going to be nearly impossible and if it does burn or sting it is probably a good idea to ask for a different product. I was surprised to discover when Lilly injured her eye last year that one of the ointments the vet had me putting in her scraped up eye burned horribly for about half an hour when I managed to get some in a cut on my own hand. I couldn't believe how patient she had been about having her eye injury treated with it once I experienced the burning. Every horse is not going to be nearly that tolerant though.

modified to add if it is something that you squirt into his ear try not squirting it straight down but angle the nozzle a little bit so it hits the inside of the ear canal and runs down. If you are squirting it directly against the tympanic membrane it might be causing him a lot of discomfort due to it being such an unfamiliar sensation and also possibly causing increased pressure in one spot.

[cutiepiepmu]

With a 60cc shot - do not inject the full amount in the same location. Not sure if the vet went over this or not, but 60cc area will not absorb quickly and can lead to an absess in the muscle. This is true for most anything except straight sterile saline or electrolyte solution. With this stuff, carful on the pec muscles since it can cause serious swelling - the danger on giving anything in the pec muscle is that if it does swell significantly it can cause reduced passage for air - BAD BAD BAD!

I DO suggest heat packing the neck though - this will help to break up the meds that are in the muscle and make it feel alot better. You can use one of the commercial gel packs you can microwave - just make sure to wrap it in a big wet towl that you also heat. Wet heat is the best. I use a pair of panty hose to tie it on Should be on for 20 minutes 2-3 times a day. He will most likely really like it since it will make his neck feel ALOT better.

Remember, you should give only a MAX of 20-25cc per injection site. Which, in large injections like this absolutely stinks. If you are comfortable with it - talk to your vet about possibly putting in a cath. and doing meds that way. He will need to stay inside though to avoid trauma to the site and to help keep it clean - but if you get to the point that you can't do other meds - a cath. can save you.

I would bet his ear is starting to heal up inside and feels itchy - which is a good thing as long as he doesn't rub too much. Some animals(and people for that mattter) do have a hard time with the Plugged sensation after putting meds inside the ear. It can be uncomfortable, and the rubbing probably helps some

Uniprim is a good option if it settles him some. Ace will work a bit faster and make him a little more drugged out - but do watch to make sure he is not too doped up. If he is starting to sweat over his body he is too doped!

Sara in WA

[crum]

cutiepiepmu said:

With a 60cc shot - do not inject the full amount in the same location. Not sure if the vet went over this or not, but 60cc area will not absorb quickly and can lead to an absess in the muscle. This is true for most anything except straight sterile saline or electrolyte solution. With this stuff, carful on the pec muscles since it can cause serious swelling - the danger on giving anything in the pec muscle is that if it does swell significantly it can cause reduced passage for air - BAD BAD BAD!

Okay, I've read it several times and still am baffled. What do you mean by "reduced passage of air"? I'm wondering if you mean the swelling causes the horse difficulty in breathing and if that is the case the injection is being given way to high up in the pectoral or the horse has an incredibly low set neck. I guess if you had a severe allergic reaction you might have "reduced passage of air", but you would also see that with the shot in the neck. Can you please explain what you mean?

To ease anyone's concerns about giving the injection in the pectoral I have asked at least 4 different vets over the years and they have all said it is fine to use that area and that they don't recommend it to most customers because of the safety issue for the handler and that it is easy to hit the sternum if one is not careful. Two of the vets did mention the poorer circulation in that area makes it a less than ideal location to give injections of really thick medications as they can settle out along the underline if the horse is not active. They both did say if the horse is receiving an extended set of injections even of thicker medication they would still recommend rotating the injections between the pectorals and other sites.

I do agree that 60 cc's in one site is a very bad idea . I had read it that you just happened to be using a 60 cc syringe and had not even considered that you might be trying to inject a full 60 cc in one site. The rule of thumb I had been told was only 15-20cc per injection site.

Did you have luck treating him since you mentioned having the problems?

modified to add that the one horse who I have had experience any swelling from an injection to a pectoral all of the swelling just settled to the lowest point of her chest. It looked like she had some water balloons down there below her pectorals but getting her out and walking her around and treating the area with warmth cleared it mostly up within an hour or two.

[pnp4kidz]

HI all,
here is the current situation...
Mr Camelot is such a trooper, not happy with us, but a trooper none the less.
He ran off yesterday when my daughter tried to catch him to put on his fly mask (he is in the gelding pasture... and well... they are geldings. They pull each others' masks and sheets off)

Later tho, he did let us catch him finally....
we abandoned the shots completely. didn't even try again.
The lumps on his neck are way better today, it's been 3 days since a shot.

I am/was using a 60 cc syringe, but his dose is 30, and I always give larger volumes like that by injecting one direction, withdrawing the needle 90% of the way, re-directing it, and giving the rest... so 15 cc each 'spot'. Over 30, I'd go for two such spots, doubling in each one.
I had not thought of the pecs, but this guy is wise to what happens after the needle gets in...
I can get the needle in, just can't 'hook up'. I don't think the Pecs would work any longer either. He rears and runs backwards when I get near him at this point.

The ear drops, they do not hurt or sting... they are the same stuff you use in dogs. Panalog.
It is a combo of triple antibiotics and yeast stuff, plus steroids for the inflammation. I use the tube, which has a 1 in extender to poke in the ear, and try to get it at least in the ear somewhere...!!! I am hopeful that some gets down in the canal!
What we are doing is taking his fly mask 'off' partway, and fiddling with it like we messed up getting it off... and while he is 'helping' us get it off the 'good' ear, I squirt in the 'bad' ear... he jumps, runs backwards... and I settle him then try rubbing the base of the ear.
The ear canal is apparently VERY long in a horse, no way am I getting on the tympanic membrane. It is a long and curvey canal, going nearly straight down. So, I'm just trying to get the stuff down in there.

I gave him the Uniprim... hoping that will help, I have one more dose for tonight, then next Thursday we recheck the ear... praying...
and then, we ride again and see how the bucking is :-)

and... then we de-sensitize him to having his ears and neck touched again.
but I will say this... the poor horse, he is trying really hard.
Even after he gets afraid, and runs backwards, when he stops, "IF" you can get a hand on his nose, he drops his head and lays it on your chest... every time. He really WANTS to be good, but it scares him, and hurts him....
and when I say he rears, it is just inches off the ground and that 'throwing his head up - feet go up a little' kind... not like rearing and striking with his feet.

anyway... onward we go, and I'll let you all know more as we go forward!

[cutiepiepmu]

I do give injections in the pec muscles, but generally I limit them to small shots like vaccinations. Something that is big like pen. or other antibiotics I generally avoid since because of the reduced circulation in this partiular area and because the muscle itself is smaller, it has a tendancy to swell more. If the swelling increases to a reasonable amount it can start to interfere with the trachea area. Yes this is certainly more pronounced if the horse has a reaction and massive swelling, but can be very serious as well just giving things like penicillian shots or antibiotic shots.

That is good that you pull out and redirect - That is the right thing to do for sure! Medicating is just not fun for anyone. Hang in there though He will be well soon!

Sara

[pnp4kidz]

Oh Oh, the Uniprim is working!
He was SOO Omuch calmer tonight!
he let me rub near the ears, on his forlock, etc...
still didn't want ointment in there... but what a difference ONE dose did!
Now, I only had two doses! I gotta get a few more!
but I'm a happy camper! and so is he!!!

[cutiepiepmu]

that is GREAT!!! Found the happy drug to help all of you cope with the treatments!!

Take care and have a wonderful weekend!
Sara in WA