I need some ideas

[toeps]

I worked with Sun yesterday in the round pen. After FOREVER, she gave me 3 of the 4 signs I look for that she is ready for more. She dropped her head, kept her inside ear on me at all times, started making smaller circles around me but no licking and chewing, she kept her jaw clenched and tight. She so scared of being touched that she would rather move until she passes out I think. So I cut it back and insead of asking to touch her, I instead asked for her to look at me and following me with her head. She caught onto that quick. I would release all pressure by turning to the side when she turned her head towards me, when she move her butt and turned to face me I would slouch and turn my back on her. By the time I left, she was turning to face me even as I walked around the outside of the roundpen.
I dont know where to go from here. She is so scared I'm gonna hit her she wont even let me close enough to feed her a treat which she will do if she's just in the pasture. But I think she's been in the round pen before with horrible experiences because when we are in there she act like I'm going to come unglued on her - It pisses me off and makes me SO sad that someone did this to her because she is SO sweet.
What I can see happening is her not letting me past her head AT ALL with this turn and face me lesson, I see her just backing up and keeping me in front of her for fear of me touching her
My mustang is easy and food motivated and will do ANYTHING for a carrot - I had him halter trained and giving VERY lightly to the halter in 20 minutes with a complete sack out. I'm at a loss where to go from here with Sun, I don't want to make it worse.
Help? Ideas? HA and here I thought she would be the easy one

Thanks

[jenm]

How long have you been working with Sun in the round pen? It sounds like you had a great session and if you patiently keep this up with regularity you will continue to earn her trust and see progress.

Turning and facing you is a great first step!

[toeps]

This is the second time I've worked with her. The first time (a couple of days ago) went really well - I thought. She let me up to her and I was able to rubbed her shoulder, up her neck to her ears and part way down her back. She got really scared and tense as I got about halfway down her back so I just kept it up by her shoulder where she seemed comfortable. I made one mistake when I lightly patted her shoulder, she about came unglued but settled down pretty quick. She was however ultra senstive. Every movement on the outside made her jump, if I moved too fast she would bolt. I felt like we ended on a good note though, she was calm when I left and had let me touch her.

I am happy with the way this second lesson ended but I know she is scared to be touched and I don't want to push her too fast. What should my next goal be? I thought maybe her following me? But how do I get her to move her feet forward towards me? I know if I can get her to take one step I can build on that.

She's very sensitive and smart and I really don't want to screw her up anymore than what some other jerk did. My mustang was very forgiving and let me make my mistakes as I learned with him but I'm doubting my training experience with Sun - and maybe thats part of the problem - I know we'll be taking baby baby steps, I would really like ideas on what the next baby baby step should be

[toeps]

Or . . . . since the round pen has obviously been a bad experience for her, should I try clicker training? I've done it and loved it with my mustang but again, he's easy. maybe it would be a better experience for her?

[jenm]

Donna,

What are you doing with her in the round pen? I spent weeks and weeks in the round pen with Jamaica and while she didn't have trust issues, it was clear she had never had formal training and thus not much respect. She had to learn to trust and respect me as her leader. We spent a lot of time on transitioning from walk to trot to canter and back down. Direction changes play a role as well. She did not join up with me at first, and now when we are finished working, she follows me every where, which is pretty cool.

I found a link you may find helpful as well. It's a site talking about round pen training, gives ideas and also helps you understand what to expect when you work a horse in a round pen.

www.kersur.net/~santa/rp1.html

This site actually does a good job of explaining how to tell when the horse is wanting to join with you: www.naturalhorsetraining.com/RoundPen3.html

I'm sure others will chime in with some good ideas. You will have to be patient with this girl, that is for sure. It may take a long time, but the reward will be well worth it.

[toeps]

I LOVE Sylvia Scott

I am very mindful before ever going in the roundpen to have a goal so I don't just run them in circles. With Sun when it became apparent that my goal was not going to be attainable, I changed it to having her face me so we could both "win". If I chased her off (when she chose to leave) she would just keep going as long as I faced her. I didn't have to put any pressure on her, that was enough, until I turned my back on her. So if she turned her head at me even the slightest, I turned around and took all pressure off. By her actions and reactions I think she, at one point, has been mindlessly run in circles. "Join up" will be awhile coming and I'm not so concerned with that as I am making things (her fear of being touched) worse. She's not scared of people, I can stand right next to her - within inches, and she will take a nap as long as I don't touch her.
I feel like I have no experience when it comes to her. I've never worked with one so scared of being touched, its not the normal "I've never been touched by an alien" kind of thing, she is petrified of it. Our first lesson when I was able to touch her shoulder, I feel that if I'd have moved faster than a slug she would have been gone. My own self doubt with it makes me feel like everything I've learned and experienced over the years and horses is mute. So, trying to reel that in and just build on what we accomplished yesterday

She is SO sweet, she's not mean, she's never kicked or bit or even thought about it. When she gets nervous, she doesn't pin her ears, she simply leaves. Oh and she is QUICK I watched her playing with the boys and she can haul butt she stopped so fast she almost sat down, spun on her haunches and was GONE again. It was fun to watch

Thanks Jen

[mkgbuegel]

When I work with the really scared ones, I go realllllllly slow. Probably to slow for most people, but its worked well for me and the horses. I fore-go all round pen work until they are truly comfortable and relaxed. Sometimes round penning a very frightened horse just doesn't work so well. They get all pumped up on adrenaline and can't think well, they just react. It makes for one really long exhausting round pen session, and the horse doesn't learn much.

For the really terrified ones, I work with them where they live. Ideally in a smaller paddock. With some of them its days of just sitting quietly until they are comfortable and then building on that. From sitting, to maybe putting my hand out when they approach, giving a cookie and a scratch, real slow. Little steps to a solid foundation.

I generally only push them to the edge of what they can handle, and ideally pull back right before they get fearful again. If you have the time to work with the horse daily, those little steps can add up really fast.

What I know about the really scared ones, is often they will allow you to do something a few times, halter them, touch them, whatever, and then one day, nothing, they act as if they have never seen you before. They were so out of their bodies that they allowed themselves to be touched, then they get a bit more comfortable (nothing bad happened when you touched them last time) and return to their bodies only to find you touching them, for what they think is the first time. They freak, try to get away, basically it appears to us that they have regressed many steps since the last, seemingly successful training session. At least thats my interpretation of whats going on, I see it with the PMU's and their offspring all the time, with abused horses most of the time, mustangs sometimes, etc.

So, you might just try slowing things down a bit and see what happens.

[beckybee]

She sounds pretty similar to Web. With him, I really have to break it into tiny increments, then reward (remove pressure) for the slightest try. We've done roundpen work and just started longeing on a line. He's back to flipping his butt away from me again, so this has refreshed my memory.

With Manny, we can go in the roundpen and play - direction, gait, etc. With Web, I have to be very explicit it what I want and stop when I got that. The first step was first turning to face me instead of presenting his butt. Now that I tought him facing me is safe, he has to then learn to yield his shoulders and let me on his side again and he learns he's still safe. (He has VERY sticky shoulders!) I learned with Web that 10-15 minutes at a time in the roundpen was all he can handle. If I didn't reward for the slightest try (one sign, not 3) he would lose all trust in me and I had to start almost from scratch next time. He's very sensitive and not very forgiving, learns quickly. I have to be sure I focus on what I want to teach him - if I don't do that, he learns the wrong thing. The sensitive ones are great, you just have to be sure you listen as closely to them as they are to you.

My breakthroughs on touching him all over didn't happen in the round pen, but in his corral and stall. Once he found butt scratches, I could make it down his side and back up again. He was initially more comfortable with brushing all over before touching him with my hand. We had that before we got in the roundpen. I actually later would fall back on brushing when we would start losing it in the roundpen to get him back into letting me be all around him.

So on the longe line now, he flips his butt away again. In the spot he stops, I increase pressure on his butt and what does that tell him? Move his butt away from me and stop. Vicious cycle. I could not figure this one out. Met with trainer yesterday. Ummm, duh, put pressure on his shoulder. (We have done earlier homework on yielding shoulder.) So I hold the stick below the handle and hold it out in front of me perpendicular to my arm and move into him when he starts his move. His head and shoulder are blocked from coming in by the handle of the stick, so the moment he sees the opening to continue around, I release. If I'm too slow to catch him before he swings his but away, keep him moving inwards toward me and not let his front feet get stuck to the ground.

As I mentioned above, we worked a lot with yielding while on on a lead before and during roundpen work. I did a lot of sensitization/desensitization exercises. To him, every touch/pressure meant move. Fingertips pressing shoulder - move - release, got it! Then I would brush his neck/shoulder. He had a halter and lead, so I kept him from moving forward and kept brushing and moving with him until he stopped moving, then I stopped brushing (release). I kept it up until I could brush that body part until he stood still. Then I would put pressure on his shoulder again to move, then go back to brushing, back and forth, same thing at hip, both sides, down legs, until I could brush him all over. Then replaced brush with hand. Once he understood that a stroke/scratch meant stand still, poke meant move, he realized he didn't always have to move. This probably took 2 or three sessions.

You know, the funny thing with the roundpen, is I initially spent more time trying to get Manny and Web to stand still. Moving was easy. Manny would spin himself into a frenzy even if I wasn't in there. Looking at Web was enough pressure to get him to move. I quickly realized making them run until they "submitted" never really got us anywhere. The first few times I would just stand in the middle ignoring them and when they realized I wasn't putting pressure on them to move and they stopped, I rewarded them by letting them stand still. Session done. Once I saw them slowing down and coming back to the ground, sometimes I would do something the make them notice me and realize it wasn't me, they were doing this to themselves, I would cough or jump. They'd stop and look at me - what the heck was that? - and stop. Reward by letting them stand still.

[toeps]

mkgbuegel said:

So, you might just try slowing things down a bit and see what happens.

baby baby steps In the couple of sessions I've had with her, I've learned that. I am loading up on my patience and sense of humor it will be very rewarding when she learns to trust

Thank you I really appreciate your insight

[toeps]

beckybee said:

You know, the funny thing with the roundpen, is I initially spent more time trying to get Manny and Web to stand still. Moving was easy.

EXACTLY - that is why I changed our goal for the session to turn and face me She is SO sensitive that I learned I have to do the same and reward her with each small thing. Instead of looking for the lowered head, smaller circles, inside ear AND licking and chewing, I had to release pressure for each of them. She was willing to give a little more each time.

So do I add SLOWLY onto that until I can get her feet to move towards me and then move on from there? Or is there a step in between that I'm missing? She will now turn and face me with her whole body, not just follow with her head
HEHE obviously we wont be saddled up and trail riding next week

[toeps]

Tonights lesson went really well We built on her standing and facing me. I then arched around her from one side to the other with my shoulder facing her and made smaller and smaller passes until I was close enough where she wanted to move away. I would see her start to tense and stop. When she relaxed I made a baby step closer. When I was arms length, if she took a step back then I would follow, staying arms length away. When she stopped, I stopped. She would relax with me at that distance so I would take another baby step in and we would do the same dance. Only twice did the pressure get too much and she left. After once around the round pen she would spin and face me and we did it all over again. Before I left I was standing with my arms crossed, shoulder dropped and facing away from her. I was at ear level with her cheek resting on my shoulder. We stood there and napped for a few minutes and called it a night Tomorrow we'll do the same thing on the other side

[calypso]

Awww - "with her cheek resting on my shoulder" made me tear up! It is so amazing when you get these little breakthrough moments. Kaleigh, Diva and Angel have no trust issues, but I experience it all the time with the cats. I'll still never forget the first time a feral decided to take a chance on me. It hooked me for life!

You're doing a great job with her. Trust your instincts - they're good!

[jenm]

You may also want to consider the Seven Parelli Games. (disclaimer: I am not a Parelli follower). However, I do think the "games" have some merit and can be helpful in situations like this.

www.parelli.com/info_page.php?page=article&lit_num=26&title=What%20are%20the%20Parelli%20Seven%20Games?&t=lit