Hoof Trimming

[djrepp]

How can I teach or reteach Vegas to pick up her back feet. She tries to kick the farrier and knows exactly how to do it. I am not sure how they trimmed her all these years? Could she be experiencing pain? Would Bute or ? help prior. She is good about her fronts with me. She has probably had horrible experiences in the past. I have tried a woman who is very experienced with difficult horses and the guy I am using is one of the best over here.

[sherigraf]

when you find out how tell me. Jamaica is the same way. You get two warnings before she aims for you.

[lauras]

I don't know if this will work with other horses but...
My farrier told me that my gal needed to learn that I would listen to her. So I would just run my hands down her legs and when her muscles twitched I would stop and do something else. In a few days she let me touch her feet before she would twitch... Then let me pick them up... I would put them right back down, gently. Now I can pick up her feet most of the time except when her laminitis flares and she has trouble holding them up. Her feet looked alot like Maryjanes at the lot... He also told me to do it at least once a day.
I don't know if that worked because her biggest issues were trust based or because she is in pain. I don't know if it would work with other horses.
She just had another terrible bout,it is so scary. I love her so much.

[djrepp]

The man I have been using has a foot broken in a zillion pieces. Not by Vegas. I don't know if it's horse related. He says given her background as a horse who herded the bucking stock in the rodeo and possibly as a ranch horse, she may have been chuted or dropped to trim and thus her reactions to him. He is very gentle and patient. She stands just fine for me to clean her fronts. I called one man and he said no way. The vet is willing to knock her out but says it is an art. This will not help me in the long run or Vegas and will be very expensive. The first time Bob did her he used a stand, the second he tried without one and finally got a rope. He said she knew exactly what he was doing. He said with the rope if they don't cooperate, it hurts. He did not nor has anyone here ever hurt her. Vegas also has a huge scar lateral on her left hind end and Kate says some muscle is gone. It was never sutured and could have been from wire or a punture or ? She is well-trained and very smart and at 20 years I don't know how to fix her and neither does my kid. Kate thinks it she may not want to pick them up because it hurts. She appears sound but has been used hard.

[djrepp]

Maybe Vegas is Jamaica'a mother. Have you ridden her yet?

[sherigraf]

Sounds just like Jamaica. Even though it has been 10 months since she got here I have not ridden her yet. I saddled her a couple times and she was pretty cinchy. She is around 22 as well and seems to prefer to hold her feet low. I've been working on her fronts and those she will hold up on her own with no help. She's a bit creaky and has the same type wound on her left rear that Vegas has. All in all this gals been worked hard and tossed. But she's a keeper in my eyes.

The one thing that all of mine really seem to like is a HoofJack. not the regular tennis ball on top type; just the expensive one.....with the little hoof hammock.

[wendyp]

I will try to explain what my farrier does............we have a paint that *always* gave the farriers trouble with his hinds - I think it just became a learned behavior for him. 'Oh, here comes the farrier, time to do the hind-leg-shuffle'.

Randy would start high on the leg and just rub and talk to him, then move lower, then lower. As soon as Tonto would move the muscles to start to move his leg, he withdrew his hand, moved away and scratched somewhere else. Started again, up high on the hind leg, down further until Tonto started to move, the released. He could get further and further down the leg each time - by releasing as soon as he saw the muscles move, Tonto realized that Randy wasn't going to grab the leg, hike it a mile in the air, and start trimming. As Randy kept repeating this, Tonto started to lift his leg, and when he did, Randy moved away and praised him - NEVER did he try to grab the leg, hold the leg, or put any kind of pressure on the leg. He repeated this probably a dozen times, and Tonto got tired of lifting his leg in the air, and just held it there for Randy (not high up, I had already told Randy he would have to trim it down low). Randy hasn't had a problem with him since. Randy also taught my PerchX filly to pick up her hinds the same way - he never holds onto the leg, he knows the horses are stronger and he can't win the tug-o-war - especially with the draft crosses. He will talk to them, and scold them if they take a 'jerk the leg away' kind of shot at him - he uses a stern voice, and says ' Hey I was being nice, now you need to be nice, or you're going to have work'. He will ask them to circle a few times if they take a shot at him more than once or twice. He doesn't hit or yell, but he will take them for a walk, make them circle, change directions, etc, and they have to obey him. After this 'talk' they are usually just fine.

I have seen Randy just tip the hind hoof forward - the toe doesn't leave the ground - and trim them from that position. If that's all the horse can handle, then he's willing to do it that way. Or he has put the hoof on a block of wood, dug the dirt away around it so he can nip it and rasp it, and the horse never has to lift his leg.

Randy is worth his weight in gold..........................

WendyP/Bend, OR

[lauras]

Sounds like my farrier...
great, gentle, patient. The horse has learned that this is kinda o.k. and she gets pet and praised and listened to.
Trust.

[quatzie]

I watched on RFD-TV Clinton Anderson training for hoof pick up and getting ready for the farrier .. it was very good. I use his method and it works for young or older horses.. I think you can see it on line for free.. on there web site. I am not for sure.. it was about a year ago that I watched it.. on TV
Wish you the best..

[cederr]

Hi Diane, If Vigor can learn to not kick me so can Vegas....first you have to rule out pain in the back end and then address it as a training issue. I use a SOFT COTTON rope to lift their leg from a safe distance and build up to holding it for longer periods and at different angles. You can hang on to a kicking leg with the rope where you can't with just your hand and the horse learns they're not getting away from 'you' and to relax. You have to desensitize them to the rope first then work on LITTLE progress points. It's basic approach and retreat...
Like put pressure on rope and they barely pick up foot so you release and reward!
and build from there until you can pull her legs any directions without her objecting.

if you need more details just ask and stay safe! Vegas is a big strong horse and she tried to take me out so I want you all to go slowly and safely! If she had stayed long enough for me to try to trim her again I would have used this rope training technique on her. It has never failed me.

Pam

[mkgbuegel]

Second the soft cotton rope. Its the only training tech. I use on hooves now. Its just so easy and pretty safe. Lots of de-sensitizing, go slow, and be safe.

[sassiedogtk]

Using the soft cotton rope works great. That is what I'm using for Cash (CBER Juiper) he is just a little guy but a stinker with his hooves. This is a safe and easy way for both you and the horse. So far its working. Good Luck.

[djrepp]

Thanks for all your thoughtful responses! The vet is coming so I will talk with him and see what he thinks as well.

[quatzie]

PREPARING FOR THE FARRIER: HANDLING YOUR HORSE'S LEGS-- Clinton Aderson-

For some horse owners, having your horse's feet handled regularly and trimmed by your farrier can be an easy, enjoyable process. For other horse owners, it can be downright frustrating for the owner, the horse and the farrier. If you have trouble handling your horse's feet - whether he pulls away from you, kicks at you, or is just uncooperative- the steps I am going to show you will be useful in overcoming these problems, teaching your horse to stand still and learn to relax when having his legs and feet handled. The biggest mistake people make when trying to handle their horses' legs, whether a young horse being taught to pick up its legs or an older horse with problems, is that they don't break the process into steps the horse can understand. They try to fight to keep a leg off the ground while restricting the horse. Remember, horses naturally want to lean and fight against pressure until they are taught not to do so. Owners must understand that a horse is a prey animal, and people are predators. Horses feel that any time they are trapped or restricted, they must flee. If they cannot flee, the next thing is to fight and defend themselves. This is where all the frustration begins because the owner picks up the horse's foot, and the horse wants to move away from them. The owner then tries to restrict the horse and stop them by tying the horse up and fighting with the leg; and the horse wants to keep kicking. What you have to do is break this sequence of events into small steps that take into consideration the horse's natural instincts, and complete each one before you move to the next. Whether you are teaching a horse something new or fixing an existing problem, the same principles apply. Break it into small steps at first. Once you have completed all of the little steps, you can put them together and have one big success.

The first step is to desensitize the horse's legs to something touching them - both our hands and a lead rope. I find that if a horse is nervous or frightened about having his legs handled, it's because he doesn't want his legs touched at all. If you can't even run your hands or a rope around your horse's legs and have him stand relaxed, what makes you think you are ever going to be able to pick his foot up and start hammering a shoe on? I use a 14-foot lead rope to run around my horse's legs. Stand a couple of feet from the front of the horse at a 45 degree angle, and gently and softly see-saw the rope back and forth up and down the front leg. All I am doing is showing the horse that something can move around his legs without restricting or hurting him. At this stage if your horse starts to move around, try to stand still and keep your horse's nose tipped toward you, allowing him to drift in a circle around you. While he is moving, keep pulling back and forth, see-sawing on the rope lightly and letting him know that he can walk around, but you are not going to stop moving the rope. As long as you keep the horse looking at you, he can't go anywhere - even if he backs up or moves sideways, just stay with him. Whenever a horse is looking at you with his nose tipped towards you, you can always walk or run faster than he can. As soon as your horse stands still and relaxes, you can stop moving the rope, rub him between the eyes and start again. Repeat this until you can rub the rope all over his legs and he stands relaxed without moving. Start by using a rope so you don't have to lean forward and put yourself in a more vulnerable, possibly dangerous position if the horse tries to kick or strike. Do not go to the next step until your horse can handle this one.


The next step is to be able to rub your hands up and down your horse's leg and have him stand quietly. Start at the top of the horse's leg around his elbow, and gradually work your way down. If you start to work your way down and he starts to move, return to a spot where he is comfortable and continue from there. Basically, you will approach and retreat. You start at the top, rub your hand down the horse's leg and, once the horse starts to become a little nervous, go back to the top and start all over again. Pretty soon, your horse will understand that just because you are rubbing his leg, he doesn't have to panic or run away. Prove to him first that you are not going to hurt him.
Now, these first two steps might go quickly with some horses; and with others, especially young horses, it might take one or two sessions. Don't be in a hurry. Take your time, because in the long run, your patience will save time.
I like to teach my horse a cue to pick up his leg. What I do to ask my horse to pick up his leg is find the chestnut - the small, hard skin just above the knee on both the front and back legs - and put my thumb and forefinger on it and squeeze lightly. The makes the horse feel a little uncomfortable causing him to take the weight off that leg and pick it up for perhaps a split second. As soon as he does this, take the pressure off the chestnut immediately; and start to rub his leg once again. All you want the horse to do is lift his foot up off the ground for a second, then go back to rubbing his leg. You are not trying to pick the leg up. All you are trying to do is teach him a cue that when you press him, he should pick the leg up. If at any time he becomes nervous or starts to react badly, go back to the previous step(s) and do more desensitizing to your horse's legs.


Once you have your horse understanding the cue to pick his foot up, you can slide your hand down towards the fetlock and hold the foot off the ground for a second or two. As soon as he lets you hold his foot, drop it again, rub him, and repeat the squeeze. What you want to do is ask him to keep the foot off the ground a little bit longer each time. You might start with one second for the first five or six repetitions. Gradually work your way up - three seconds, four seconds and so on. What you are doing is giving the horse a chance to understand that just because he picks his foot up off the ground, it does not mean you are going to try to hold it there for a long time. Remember, especially with young horses, they have to learn to balance themselves on three legs. They can't go straight from standing on four legs to, all of a sudden, standing on three legs perfectly for ten minutes. Give them a chance to understand what you want them to do.


Now you are at the stage where your horse will lift his leg on cue, and hold it there for 10-15 seconds with your hand underneath his pastern or fetlock. With your other hand, gently rub up and down his leg and desensitize him while his leg is lifted off the ground. If at any stage your horse wants to try to move his leg around, try not to restrict him. Move back and forth with him. If you're holding his front leg and he wants to move it back and forth, gently hold it to keep it off the ground, but go back and forth with him. Do not try to keep his foot still. This will cause him to fight more and panic. As soon as he stops moving his leg, drop the foot and start all over again. Show him that as soon as he stops moving his leg, you will release his foot and put it on the ground. Now, if you horse ends up pulling his leg away from you and you are not able to keep it off the ground, this is not a problem. Just begin again going over all of the steps. Don't get in a fight with him. Treat the whole procedure as a casual game.


Now you should have your horse's foot to the stage where you can hold it off the ground, rub it with both hands while you keep it off the ground, and he is not interested in moving it around. Now start to desensitize your horse to the tapping sensation that he will feel when being shod. I usually start with my hand and tap it on the bottom of the horse's hoof until he relaxes. If, when you start tapping, the horse starts to resist, try to gently keep tapping and let the horse's leg move back and forth. As soon as the horse starts to relax and stops moving around, keep tapping for a few seconds, then release the leg to the ground. Show the horse that the quickest way to get rid of the tapping is to ignore it. Once you can do this successfully, get a shoeing hammer, a stick, a rock or anything that has some weight to it, and gently tap that on the horse's hoof. As your horse becomes calmer, start tapping harder. You are simulating and desensitizing your horse to the tapping sensation he will experience when the farrier comes. I find that most horses that don't like being shod are resistant to the hammering of the nails and the feeling of their foot being tapped and vibrated. Show your horse this is something he doesn't need to get worried about. This is an extremely good lesson for weanlings and yearlings, and if you do this leading up to the first time they are shod, their first experience is usually easy for both the horse and the farrier. Your farrier will appreciate your preparation.


Once you get to this step on both front legs, do it often. Remember, the answer is approach and retreat. If you think your horse is going to pull his foot away in five seconds, put the foot down in four seconds. Work on both front legs and get them really good before you move to the back legs. The front legs will generally be easier than the back legs.


The next step is working on the back legs. When you start this, you should follow the same steps, beginning with the rope. If he starts to really kick and thrash at any point, to where you feel unsafe, just drop the rope and start again. All you have to do is keep the horse's nose tipped towards you and that will cause the hindquarters to move away from you. As long as you are standing up towards the horse's shoulder, he won't be able to kick you.
From here, follow exactly the same steps as above.
A success tip on the back leg is that once you get to the point where you are asking your horse to keep his foot off the ground and you start to rub the horse's leg with your hand - hold the horse's leg with your hand under the horse's hoof towards the horse's toe and curl the toe backwards. If you hold it like this, you will be less likely to cause claustrophobia in the horse. Try not to grip tightly on the pastern with your hand.
COMMON MISTAKES
Don't do this when your horse is fresh. If you have not worked your horse for a few days and he has been locked in a stall, he won't have his attention on you. Try this exercise at the end of a groundwork session or riding session when you feel you have your horse worked out emotionally, physically and mentally enough to stand still and pay attention to you. These steps will work a lot better if you already have respect from your horse, as I have taught you in all the previous articles.


Trying to pick up and hold the foot up too soon. Remember, most people are trying to pick up the horse's foot and restrict it. This is the opposite of what a prey animal can tolerate unless he understands you will not hurt him. You need to tell your horse almost the opposite - that you don't want to pick the foot up. The more you rub him and desensitize the leg, pick it up in small stages and slowly start to hold it longer and longer, the less the horse will mind you holding his foot off the ground.


Not desensitizing the horse enough to your touch. Remember, if you cannot rub your horse's leg up and down with both hands, the rope, and have him completely bored and not interested in moving away or getting frightened, don't even try to pick the foot up.


Your horse tries to pull his leg away or tries to fight you. Don't try to stop the leg from moving. Move with the leg. If the leg starts to move so much that you can't hold on to it, just drop it and start the steps again. If you have the rope around your horse's leg and he starts to move or kick towards the rope, move the rope further up the horse's leg and tip the horse's nose towards you. Remember, when you see-saw the rope, don't do it so hard that it might cause the horse a rope burn. Once he understands the rope won't hurt him, he will stop kicking. Try not to reprimand him, as it will only make him feel more defensive at this point.


Don't do this in a restricted area like a stall or tie the horse. Give your horse plenty of room to move around. Ideally, do this in a 50-foot round pen or an arena. Remember, when the horse wants to move, let him; and as long as your keep his head tipped toward you, he can't run away. Even if he drifts sideways or backwards, go with him.
TROUBLESHOOTING
Your horse walks around and doesn't stand still when the rope is around his legs or when you are rubbing him - he begins to panic. Be patient and persistent - stay in position and keep rubbing his legs until he starts to relax. Remember, start at the top of the leg and work your way down. If you are rubbing on your horse's leg and you get down towards his knee or hock and he starts to get nervous, just move back towards the top of the horse's leg again. Start where he is comfortable and work down from there. As soon as he relaxes, take your hands away or stop moving the rope, pat your horse and repeat it again.


When you start to pat the horse's hoof with your hand or with a shoeing hammer, your horse starts to move his leg back and forth and wants to pull away. Try to keep tapping the horse with a little lighter tap. Start out gently and slowly increase the tapping sensation as the horse starts to relax. Remember, if you get three taps and the horse stands still, put the foot down and start again. Next time try to get four taps before you put the foot down. If the horse is pulling away, you should not be holding on to his leg and trying to stop him from moving. Let your arm go back and forth with the horse's leg and, if you can, keep up the tapping as he keeps moving it. This will show him that, just because he is moving his leg, the tapping sensation is not going to go away. Do not try to tap the horse's hoof with your hand or your hammer until you can completely pick up all four feet well and handle them well with him completely relaxed. If you can't do that, don't expect him to stand there while you tap his hoof.


Your horse tries to kick or strike at the rope when it's around his leg. Just try to loosen up the rope and not pull it quite as hard. You might try lifting your arms up and pulling the rope higher up his leg. The higher up his leg it is, the less defensive he will probably be. Once the horse realizes that you aren't going to hurt him with the rope, he will lose his defensiveness and stop trying to kick at you. The worst thing you can do is to pull on the roper harder and reprimand the horse, or stop him from kicking. Just go with it. Act like he's not doing it, and soon he won't be doing it.