VERY troubled mare.. I don't understand! help..?

[eirualaerdna]

Some may remember me mention "Tahoe"? She is my best friend's horse, but I work with her more than she does by far. I'm basically her owner. I'm moving her to the stable where Birdie is in the next day or two. She has a serious issue that I don't know how to address.

She is a 14.3h national show horse breed. She's 15, has been a show horse, especially in jumping, used to live in a very nice place in a nice padded stall and all that. She was used for lessons, ect. I don't know much more about her background.

Problem is, she's INCREDIBLE under saddle, but on the ground it's not that way. I had her in pasture, but when I try to put her in a stall with the other horses out, she freaks out and wont shut up. She's broken gates down trying to get out of a stall if other horses are in the pasture and she's not. She will run away if I'm even remotely close to her when she's hanging with the other horses in the pasture (although the rest of them will hang out with me) as if she knows I'm going to touch her. She will never look directly at me, especially in the eyes. She kicks at the other horses, bites them, ect when they're eating, or even for no good reason at all. She reared up on the baby pony when it was born and tried to kill it, but missed only because she was on a hillside and ended up slipping down. I have no idea what's going on in her head. Once I get a halter on her, she follows me anywhere and she does pretty much anything I ask her (including picking up her speed or slowing down according to what I'm doing), but it's as if she refuses to recognize my presence even though she will do what I ask. In the saddle, she responds amazingly, and I don't feel disconnected from her at all. Her social problems are becoming increasingly more of a serious problem. Does anyone have any idea what makes a horse this way, and what can I do to help her? Is there a book I can read or a video I can watch or something? Does anyone have any suggestions? My friend has given up on her because she can't handle her, but I don't want to give up on her. She wants to sell her, but I think there's something I haven't done that might make all the difference... maybe not. Ideas?

[ljbrooks]

Read some Mark Rashid books. He addresses many different horse "issues" in a very anecdotal, easy to read style.

*Can she be put in an adjoining pasture, but not actually in with other horses?
*Is there any horse she gets along with? I have noticed this behavior you describe in a horse I currently have and we just had to find the right combination of horses for him to be in with. He likes ONE mare and that is IT! He doesn't tolerate any other horse and tries to injure them (and has!) if they come anywhere close to the mare. So, they get a little place by themselves.
*Has this mare been moved alot lately? Is she under any stress in general? Has she been checked by a vet recently? Perhaps she isn't feeling well and that could explain why the behavior is getting worse, if she is getting physically worse. Not to scare you, just saying that could be an issue.
*Is she being overworked possibly, and just acting out her frustrations? I have a gelding who actually loves to work, but if I ride him too much, he heads to the other end of the pasture when I show up. They try to tell us what they need and if we don't listen they have to talk "louder".
*As far as looking in the eyes, try NOT looking directly into her eyes. Use a "soft" eye that she doesn't perceive as a threat. If you look anyone in the eye, that can be perceived as very aggressive and confrontational. If she acts up while you are looking directly at her, this could be some of the problem, especially if you don't have the issue as you're leading her (not looking at her) or undersaddle (again, not looking at her).

I'm not saying any of these are what is going on with your mare, but just possibilities. Good luck!

MTA: How long have you/your friend had her? I have had horses that take several months to a year to get used to new people/places/etc. I know I don't do well with change. ;D

[countrygirl]

It sounds to me like your horse very has become very herd bound and also lacks confidence (which is why she can't stand to be alone). At the same time, she is fairly dominant and disrespectful (a natural horse behavior). Extreme herd bound horses are acually displaying a sign of insecurity. They need other horses to feel confident and secure. I suggest you get the Clinton Anderson Gaining respect and control on the ground video. He takes you through the exercises you need to do to get your horse to respect you and your space. In a nutshell, the way you get a horse to respect you is to get their feet to move. There are several exercises you can do to "control your horses feet". There are exercises you can do in the round pen and on a 14 foot line. For very disrespectul horses (biting, rearing, striking) the best exercise is to get them to back out of your space (several steps, not just 1 or 2). Desensitizing exercises (done properly) help build horses confidence. The video is kind of expensive but well worth the money. He explains everything in great detail. You can go to his website at downunderhorsemanship.com or search ebay to find an already used dvd.

Is there someone who uses Natural horsemanship that can show you some exercises?

[watermarkfarm]

euro-laundra,
You've gotten some good advice here. This mare is extremely herd bound and that can be a really dangerous thing, but not impossible to improve upon. The social stuff may be a product of her childhood and you can improve on that but not always make it much better. You have to modify their living quarters for that. I had a OTTB mare who was great in every way but extremely aggressive toward other horses (no wonder.....kept on the racetrack since age 2 in her "own" stall, own everything). I simply had to keep her either alone or with one or two carefully chosen friends ---- it made boarding sometimes challenging but not impossible. She was VERY stressed out in groups.

For the herd boundness, your mare needs to go into a safe paddock where she can see and has friends on either side. The best remedy for herd bound horses, I have found, is to vary theiri routine, ie they get daytime turnout but always come back in to their own enclosure at night. They CANNOT be out 24/7 with other horses.

When I get an extremely herd bound horse in my barn, I often find I have to let them go through a "detox" period of several days to a week where I bring them in to the barn and keep them in a stall/paddock with lots of views and friends alongside. They pace and run and scream. It is very stressful to watch, but they ALWAYS eventually stop. They lose weight, look terrible, tear up their feet and the paddock. I have lots of hay out, and put out grain and treats often. I ride them daily and keep their routine otherwise normal.

I have had several come to me this way, and it took several months and always we had very careful management forevermore, BUT you can greatly improve on the situation.

I like John Lyons and Pat Parelli's 7 games. I also think clicker training, in the paddock, could be great for a horse like this. Your horse would benefit from a lot of ground work to develop her confidence and help her accept humans (and their presence) as her "herd."

She sounds like she needs work, but if her training under saddle is great, then you have good problems to deal with. Most often, ground issues like this are the product of some mishandling and poor social conditioning along the line. You might never stop her from being prone to herd boundness, but you can make it much better.

I am happy to talk to you further if you need help. I am at 707-544-7584.

Katie

[jessiegirl1981]

Destiny was like this with Moxie I had to seperate them completly for my own safety. She went into a seperate paddock where she could see other horses but not Mox. She improved so much it was amazing. She screamed for two whole days which was awful but after that I brought Moxi to see her so she knew she was still around. It seemed to help her. To this day if she is with Moxie for long periods of time she goes spiraling back no other horse though just her. It is very dangerous though and I dont regret splitting them.

[anitahorse]

Another resource is Dr. Deb Bennett's website "Equine Studies Institute". Mostly based on the Ray Hunt/Dorrance brothers school of horsemanship - but the info applies to any breed or riding discipline. There are several articles that you can access for free about training/riding issues. There is a forum you can join as well (free) if you want to post a question. She WILL expect that you have done your homework and she WILL make you work for your answer! Once I got my "I've had horses for 35 years" ego out of the way and really internalized some of the thought provoking questions and answers, I relate to my horses in a whole different way and on a higher level than I thought possible. It's not easy, it's not magic - but sometimes it feels that way.

[icehorse]

I've probably mentioned this before, but try Jessica Jahliel's books or online articles. She seems to have an answer to every problem. Also, I don't put barren (non pregnant) mares with pregnant mares, and I certainly don't put any horse with a mare and it's newborn foal, it's just too risky. Other mares will try to steal the foal, or just want to hurt it. It's said alot, but horses are just like people, some get along with each other and some don't. I can put my gelding with my stallion and they get along great, but if another mare is around they want to kill each other. I can put my gelding in with foals or mares, but he hates my new mare(because she's bigger than him) and he acts like he wants to kill her. Jessica's book gives you the basics on who goes well with whom, and who does not...and of course there are always exceptions. good luck

[rocky]

I like that Lisa suggested a Vet chack first....

[ljbrooks]

How's your mare doing?