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Post by lilypondfarm on Nov 27, 2007 12:35:43 GMT -5
My daughter's big TB/Standardbred, Willie is having a trailer loading problem. He loads about 50% of the time just fine, but the other 50%, he decides he doesn't want to. There is no rhyme or reason to it, and we have tried just about every method there is. He is NOT scared, just seems stubborn. Sometimes he won't load from home, but the most recent times, he hasn't loaded to come back home. At her 4-H ride night last week, it took 3 1/2 hours to load him to go home  and last night at jump club after trying and trying and getting very frustrated, the trainer told us to just leave him there. I don't understand because sometimes he'll just walk right in. Alyssa has worked with him every single day with loading and has gotten him to the point where he will just walk right in, but then out of the blue, one day he'll decide not to... we may be at home or coming home from somewhere and he'll just not get in. There is no consistency to his loading (or lack of). I think we are now at the point where we need professional help (our 2 local trainers we have worked with haven't been successful either). Willie has not ever had a bad trailer experience and once loaded, rides quietly and well. Alyssa is supposed to start the Equestrian team next week, but doesn't feel she can rely on Willie - we may get stuck at the fairgrounds and not be able to get him home. He's nice to ride, but she wants to compete and she can't do that at home!  Too bad our little rescue Peter isn't old enough to ride, he loads like a dream!!!!  Help please!!!! Stacey |
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Post by beckybee on Nov 27, 2007 14:44:26 GMT -5
All I know is when you NEED them to load, that's when they decide to balk. Kinda like cats always disappearing the day you move!
Others probably have better ideas than me, but maybe it's not the loading, it's the ride in the trailer? If he comfortably walks on and off, especially when just hanging out at home (no pressure), it seems that the loading is okay. If you have a slant, maybe you can borrow a straight trailer or vice versa. Coming home after a workout, he may be fatigued and doesn't want the "work" he has to do in the trailer. I have heard slants put a lot of stress on front right/left hind.
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Post by TashGaia on Nov 27, 2007 14:52:42 GMT -5
Bribery? What is his favorite treat?
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Post by lilypondfarm on Nov 27, 2007 15:18:27 GMT -5
Beckybee - We too thought it may be the trailer. We have a 2 horse straight load and he is pretty big, so we thought maybe he felt claustrophobic, so we borrowed a large stock trailer and again he would load about half of the time. We borrowed a slant load and same thing, so I don't think it's the trailer.
Tash - Bribery did work for a while, but again, not consistently (even if we bring a variety of irresistible treats)
I just spoke with the trainer who has him at her barn and she thinks he is one of those horses who needs to be worked hard (ridden) every single day...not just a few days a week as he used to now. She suggested we board him at her barn and I can bring Alyssa there to work him every day in the arena and maybe then he would form a stronger bond with her. She thinks Willie thinks of Alyssa as his personal slave who is just there to feed him and keep his stall clean. She says that by riding him consistently, it may help with the loading issue, but who knows! At this point, we're willing to try just about anything!
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Post by beckybee on Nov 27, 2007 16:42:59 GMT -5
Well, the other fall-back is: More Groundwork! I have a REALLY CRAPPY, TINY, OLD (1958!) 2h straightload trailer. Ask Sam The new cber trailer rules I think are because of me (at least in part). My admiration of Sam skyrocketed when we showed up at her place to load up a barely halterbroke Web, with Manny recently loaded a Deb's, turned backwards with divider knocked to the floor, and I asked her if she thought we would be able to get 'em both in - Sam's reponse: "All we can do is try!" I think the first couple times they got in, it was because they didn't know better. After a 12 hour trip from Washington, moving to a new (scary!) stable, and a trip to the vet, I never thought I would get them in again. Worked on groundwork, had practice loading days - a lot of approach and retreat (no, you can't go forward into the trailer, you have to back up). Last time they walked right on and settled in with barely a blink. They do have each other, though. Do you trailer your big guy alone? |
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Post by mkgbuegel on Nov 27, 2007 22:19:43 GMT -5
Hmmm, my guess, a confidence & respect issue. Since horses have their moods just like we do, it makes sense (at least to me) that they aren't going to act the same every single time we work with them.
Some days my horses are calm and thinking, its easy to get them to do what ever I ask, and then other days, they are nervous & reactive, and other days, they can be everything in between. I have to treat the horse differently based on his/her daily mood, but the one thing that must be a constant is the horses respect for me and confidence in me. With out that, I am hard pressed to get them to do what I ask, esp. if its one of those days.
My suggestion, lots more ground work. With the person on the ground, get the horse good at going forward, thur tight spaces. And don't take no for an answer, if he needs time, fine give him time, but don't give up. Getting creative helps too, sometimes its as silly as moving the truck & trailer into a different position so its brighter inside the trailer. I like to lunge my horses in a few small circles near the trailer door, and then ask them to step in. Ground work, lots of it.
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Post by rescuestoribbons on Nov 27, 2007 23:12:44 GMT -5
Hey guys! I know how you feel, not quite as bad but still problems! You just need to go slow with him..... just one day get him to put one or two feet in stand back out, give a cookie and LOTS of praises! Do that till he will comfortably do that, then another foot lots of pets and praises while in the trailer, back out and more pets and praises, DONT try to pull him in, let him sniff it and you walk in the trailer, and wait for him to willingly put one or more feet up. If he wont lift one of his fronts up and place it in the trailer tell him good boy and cookies again!
I also agree with Beckybee, ground work builds a HUGE bond between horse and rider as you can see with Tolo at 4-H, he is SOOO much better, maybe you should try a slant or stock trailer just to get him in so he is not tottaly boxed it at first then work towards the straight! We should have a loading day at 4-H with our horses!!
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Post by rescuestoribbons on Nov 27, 2007 23:36:36 GMT -5
Oh! More ideas!!
So me and my mom were finding solutions! This is what we came up with!
Majority of the horses are not scared of getting in the trailer.... they see that there is no way out if they walk in straight, so they are worried of HOW they are going to get OUT! So, get him to put a foot or two in and push him out, and give cookie, to let him know that he CAN get out and he is not stuck in the trailer.... if he knows that he can get out he will be more willing to get in, as we all know horses are flight animals and they have to have a way out of things!
Then also dont push him to hard.... they are like little kids, if you push them to hard they will shut down (as most of us thoroughbred owners know!), reward him a lot and let him know when he does something good...... The goal is teaching him to get out, practice backing him out. Just put one hoof in and back out SEVERAL times (10 or so times a day) until you think that he has got that under his belt, which could/should take a week or so for the first foot..... it is really easy to get frustrated but you cannot let your self when they are learning new things, just say nope not it and try it again! Dont rush the process!!
Another idea is to work on a bridge backing off it, building his trust. Go outside and just groom him, or play little games with him like you did with Cruzzie! Good luck Alyssa!! I love you!!
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Post by wendyp on Nov 28, 2007 0:23:20 GMT -5
Okay, here is my 'Kathleen Lindley/Mark Rashid' version of trailer loading...........
Willie does not 'know how' to load properly - I know that sounds silly, but loading isn't just about a horse walking into a trailer, that's the physical part. Horses have to mentally be 'in' the trailer also....they have to be trained to load when they are given the cue to load, otherwise it's just a crapshoot whether they will load or not........ Bribing, beating, coaxing, are only temporary solutions to trailer loading.
I have no idea what Willie's problem is, but I highly doubt that boarding him at the trainers, and riding him everyday is going to help his trailer loading - I don't get that analogy, but hey, I'm not a trainer. I'm sure my horses feel like I am their food slave - especially since I only really ride two of them, but they still load in the trailer really well. How could Willie possibly associate more riding/bonding with loading in the trailer? The trailer loading has nothing to do with Alyssa, it has to do with the trailer.........
Are you going to WA (Yakima or Othello) anytime soon? Kyya Grant could really help with this problem in a very short period of time -she is also a student trainer with Mark Rashid ............
I do have a tip for you..............When you walk Willie up to the trailer (breathe and relax, and envision him loading with no problem - do not get tense and anticipate a problem), have Stacie stand behind him about 6-8 feet with pebbles in her hand. Ask Willie gently and calmly to step in, and if he doesn't immediately show an attempt to go in, Stacie should gently toss a pebble at his butt and hit him. This is an underhand gentle toss, and when it hits Willie, he might just step forward. If he doesn't, ask again, then toss a pebble. It might take several pebbles tosses to get him loaded, but for some reason this works. Horses have preconcieved notions about whips and ropes, and people standing too close behind them.........but the pebble seems to come out of nowhere, with no human hand attached, so it isn't really threatening, it just works as a motivator..........I really don't know why it works, but it does....
It is so important to be calm and relaxed when you ask him to load - if either of you are anxious, anticipating a problem, hoping he loads this time, in a hurry to get somewhere, are short tempered, or cranky with each other - Willie is going to sense that and it will affect his trailer loading.
My PMU mare Dezi was exactly like this - I had Kathleen work with her at one of the clinics last year and it took her an hour and a half of asking Dezi over and over and over and over again to load, and Dezi refusing time and time and time again, trying to pull away, trying to kick, trying to run over Kathleen, until she used up all her tricks to avoid trailer loading, and she loaded. Kathleen never got tense, never jerked or pulled on her, never lost her patience, she just kept asking her to load. Dezi tried to turn around when she got in there and got stuck, but she worked it out, and loaded repeatedly afterwards. It's a good thing we worked on that, because she colicked in April and even though she was in dire pain, she loaded like a champ. She ended up dying from the colic, but it would have been a much more horrible experience if I couldn't get her in the trailer.
I know how frustrating this can be, but please please please don't let people talk you into beating him (the old 'let him know it's more pleasant in the trailer than outside of it' gimic) he isn't refusing to load because he's a bad horse, he isn't loading because he either learned how 'not to' or he doesn't really know how to load. Maybe loading Peter first, and then asking Willie to load next to him would be a good interim solution............
Best wishes,
WendyP/Bend, OR
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Post by rescuestoribbons on Nov 28, 2007 2:16:58 GMT -5
Well, I do have to say that I disagree (in a nice matter!) with tossing pebbles at him to make him load because that would be considered scaring the horse so that he just wants to get out of the situation, they are flight animals. You want the horse to willingly load into the trailer, not saying it has to be more "pleasant" for them, its just something they should know how to do because of emergencies like you stated. Also, tossing pebbles at them will effect them in other ways besides the trailering issue, it will effect his riding and overall attitude...... if, while riding something small happens to hit his butt, his first instinct would be to GO forward because that is what he learned from loading, when something hits him, go away from it, which would be forward. I believe that that is just a short cut to really getting to the problem, instead of spending time really working with him so that he wants to load, you are just going to "hit" him until he does which could also lead to him freaking out because of the mysterious flying objects that are hitting him every time he happens to be by a trailer. Again this is my opinion. Also, about bonding, I believe that it plays a BIG part in how your horse behaves for you. If you dont spend quality time with your horse daily they will not respect or trust you as much. For example, in eventing (my discipline of choice!) you have to face some pretty scary objects to the horses and endure long hard cross country courses. Horses that trust their owners will really go all out and will run till death for their owners.... others will toss them off, not ALL the horses that toss their riders are not well bonded but your relationship with your horse plays a big part in how they act under saddle also..... Again this is MY opinion |
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Post by mkgbuegel on Nov 28, 2007 11:39:25 GMT -5
Have to disagree about the problem being the trailer. I believe the problem is with in the relationship between horse & owner. Confidence, trust, respect, if you don't have it, you will have challenges of this nature with your horse. modified my post, deleted part of it, decided it wasn't helpful, I was in a weird mood yesterday when I wrote it  |
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Post by watermarkfarm on Nov 28, 2007 12:25:49 GMT -5
Look online and find the John Lyons video called "Leading and Loading." This is such great work in this video! I have trained and re-trained about 12 different horses using this 'method.' Basically, Lyons reasons that horses never learn how to UNLOAD and are very tense about getting IN, because they are worried about how to get OUT. I trailer trained 3 PMU mares by following the instructions in the video and they all load great. They will walk in and literally stand for several hours with the back door OPEN until I cue them to unload.
Another thought: check out books by Linda Tellington Jones. I saw her do a demo last year with a horse who was very nervous in the trailer. They put tarps alongside him to simulate trailer sides, and he was fine. Then they had several helpers stand on hay bales and hold the tarps up high, over his head. He was a mess!! From that Linda concluded that his fear was based in him not liking things over his head. I thought that was a really great approach ----- trying to figure out exactly WHAT in the trailer experience was bothering him.
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Post by icehorse on Nov 28, 2007 13:20:10 GMT -5
ugh, I have this exact same problem with my gelding Tank. He's 9 yrs old, very broke. Has had Tons of groundwork and is very responsive with it. He's also herd boss and very smart. He's loaded in every kind of trailer with no problems until recently(last 4 months) and we are trying all different types of trailers-with or without horses. Sounds like he is doing the same thing as your horse. Sometimes taking 2 hours to load and sometimes jumping right in. Even on the way home after an hour of riding at the arena or a nice trail ride. I think he's just smart and stubborn and sometimes just wants to play these games. We do circles and whenever he is facing straight at the trailer he is rewarded(handful of grain or a nice pat), and it does help with physically putting one of his front feet in for him, he seems to get in right away after that(when we can get him close enough). He doesn't ever act scared at any point, just stubborn and won't move. So, good luck. the only thing that has changed is my daughter is riding him alot more now than I am, so maybe he's mad that I'm not riding him...you can clearly see he is jealous when I ride another horse...who knows what they are thinking??!!
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Post by wendyp on Nov 28, 2007 19:14:57 GMT -5
We loaded a mare this past weekend at my house - Angie, Barbpurple, Tockita, and Kendall were all there. It took Kendall 1.5 hours to load this mare the night before. Now, I will say that the trailers were different, the one we were loading her in was Kathy's big 4 horse slant, so much more open..........but the mare did not want to get in. She didn't throw a fit or anything, just didn't move. So when Angi asked her come forward, I waited a second for her to move, if she didn't I tossed a pebble - and I am talking about very lightly - this mare didn't startle, she didn't jump, the pebble did not 'scare or intimidate' her at all. But it took a total of 3 pebbles and she was in the trailer, not traumatized, not agitated, not annoyed, just walked in like a champ. The pebbles ARE NOT punishment........maybe you just have to see this work in order to appreciate it................It is very calm, patient, no one is stressed..........
Maybe Kathy will read this thread and chime in...................
WendyP/Bend, OR
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Post by barbpurple on Nov 28, 2007 20:17:01 GMT -5
been a palomino..(heheh) she was fine and the pebbles did not hurt her.. so i do believe that i would do the same thing in any given situtation..
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Post by wendyp on Nov 28, 2007 21:58:07 GMT -5
Hi Barb, I didn't realize you were standing there when we loaded her! The biggest challenge is actually making contact with the pebble - I am a terrible aim!!! We actually had to tell Kendall to 'go away' or 'be quiet' (in a nice way!) because he kept saying how this mare wasn't going load, it was going to take forever, we were never going to get her in the trailer, etc............and she was loaded within a couple of minutes. I'm not saying she loaded only because I tossed pebbles - Angi was in trailer inviting her in, and I think Angi has a 'way' with horses. The mare just needed a tad bit of extra encouragement.............
Any piece of equipment can be a weapon or a tool...........it's all in how it's utilized. I wouldn't use the pebble toss on a obviously frightened horse, or a horse that doesn't know how to load/unload. But Willie sounds like he knows how, he is just reluctant sometimes.
The pebbles are no different than tapping with a dressage whip, or swinging the end of a rope to 'drive' the horse into the trailer............but with a horse you don't know, or is nervous if someone is right behind them, or doesn't like swinging ropes, or you don't have whip to tap them with, the pebble is just a way of tapping them from a distance. I have no illusions that the horse doesn't think we are doing something...........they do know. But it is somewhat random when/where the pebble comes from.
I think gently tossing a pebble is preferable to 1.5 - 2 hours of whatever people do to get a horse loaded. Most of the time, the pressure is 'upped' the longer it takes for the horse to load. And the pebbles don't always work, it's just another tool - take it or leave it..........
WendyP/Bend, OR
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Post by rescuestoribbons on Nov 29, 2007 0:02:40 GMT -5
I think that it might work on some horses, but long term it it just not ideal..... you want the horse to load when you ask it to and willingly.... not having to have someone behind you with the pebble, because (not saying just for you Alyssa cause hopefully you are not trailering him alone!) it does require two or more people It is just a short term solution and kind of a way to get out of really working with them on the problem. |
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Post by wendyp on Nov 29, 2007 0:39:34 GMT -5
Tarra, I just want to clarify - You seem to think I am saying to do this all the time, every time............if you read the original post, Willie doesn't always refuse to load. I never said 'don't do anything else except throw rocks at him'.........I was suggesting a possible solution to getting Willie in the trailer when he decides he doesn't want to load, and Alyssa doesn't want to spend 2 hours trying to get him in the trailer. Did you read anything else in my original post? Or did you just pick up on the pebble toss, and ignore the rest? Please go back and re-read it - we are on the same page...........but you are so focused on the pebbles you can't see the big picture. I'm not trying to be harsh, but I think you missed my point........... I can assure you that if any of my horses (which load just fine, I don't need to do 'anything' except ask them to load in the trailer - except now I have just jinxed myself!!!!) are hit from behind out on the trail with anything, they are going to go forward..............it's a natural reaction....... Okay, I'm done .....I made a suggestion that came from a very well respected trainer, Mark Rashid, and if you don't like it, don't do it. Simple as that. If I had said tap the horse lightly with a dressage whip, no one would have thought twice about it..............oh well............ WendyP/Bend, OR |
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Post by lilypondfarm on Nov 29, 2007 9:18:22 GMT -5
Thanks for all of the suggestions! I really think it has to do (at least in part) to respect for Alyssa (or people in general). Alyssa has worked him and ridden him in the arena the past 3 nights and had a lesson on Tuesday. He is doing well, but there are little things that show he thinks he's in charge. He is learning more trust & respect and I think that will help with everything. He is so tired (not used to this much consistent work), but Alyssa told him last night if he would've just gotten in the trailer, he could've been back home on easy street. We have tried nearly all of the suggestions listed above - all to no avail. When he is in his non-loading frame of mind, he doesn't mind dressage whip tapping, pebbles (or rocks  ) or even the broom bristles they aren't supposed to like the feel of. We had been using the John Lyons method, and that did work - sometimes. We'll keep working on it and keep you posted. Thanks again for suggestions - we have learned that certainly not every method works for every horse, every time. We've also been reminded that animals are VERY good at keeping you humble. Stacey |
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Post by beckybee on Nov 29, 2007 12:33:55 GMT -5
How is he about "sending" in general? I suggest breaking it down and do things from the ground that "simulate" trailer loading.
One suggestion is to place some cones about 3 feet from a wall and practice drawing him, then progress to sending him between the wall and the cones. Have to do both ways (sides) until he walks slowly and comfortably both ways. Then move to backing him along the wall, again both sides. If he doesn't do this calmly and willingly, he ain't gonna do it with a trailer!
The other thing to work on is doing "controlled" entry/exits through narrow gates. Stepping one foot at a time, stopping, backing. Will he back calmly into or out an arena or roundpen gate? I agree, I think this has nothing to do with the trailer. If Alyssa can look at this as a puzzle she can have some fun with some creative games!
I know my signature line below seems pessimistic, but look how many ideas this one horse's "difficulty" has generated! If they always did everything we asked every time, what would be the fun of that?
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Post by mkgbuegel on Nov 29, 2007 12:37:19 GMT -5
I don't think that is at all pessimistic. I teach the easy ones and the hard ones teach me.
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Post by watermarkfarm on Nov 29, 2007 21:56:59 GMT -5
Sometimes they are harder for someone they respect less.
A mare in our pony club really takes advantage of her owners. She refuses to load for them. They ask me to load her, I walk over, pick up the whip, and she hops right in. She does not respect them.
The trick with the John Lyons "method" (I hate using that word) is that you have to be very FIRM and CALM and PACK A LUNCH. Literally. I pack food and a drink so that I don't have to leave the trailer. I have been known to pee right there. I have a hat and a coat and sunscreen. I find that I have to be prepared to stick with it for several hours with some horses. I have only encountered one horse that I worked with for many, many, many hours and she stayed calm and happy but steadfastly refused to load in a 2-horse straightload. She rides in a slant load, loose, now. I gave up!!
Commitment....is the key. And stay calm, and make it fun and very positive for the horse.
I use lots of treats, unlike Lyons. Your horse utilizes a different nervous system when you place food in his mouth. I sprinkle alfalfa meal on the trailer floor, and put a huge "jackpot" up front. Make it a fun game, but be very firm about what you want.
I don't consider a horse fully trailer trained until I have loaded AND unloaded him 500 times. Once they get really good at it, we will load/unload 25 or more times in a session.
Keep a picture in your mind of your horse climbing in the trailer without fuss. Very important. Often when we work with horses, we are training for one thing, but imagining another!! They read the pictures in our minds and comply.....we have to keep our minds clean and positive.
All this assumes that you have done some decent groundwork, trained the horse to "send" forward ahead of you (essential).
There are a few horses I have here who need me to walk in ahead of them to load. I have tried the sending forward this with them to no avail. So I compromise. There are no hard rules.
I love teaching horses to load. I would do it as a full time job if I could. Incredibly rewarding!! Keep up the good work ---- calm, happy, positive but FIRM. Keep us updated.
Katie
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Post by watermarkfarm on Nov 29, 2007 21:59:16 GMT -5
Another very important thing to consider....
Have you RIDDEN in your trailer? When I see a horse with trailer issues, I like to hook up his trailer and take a ride in it myself. Both local roads and freeway. Are there strange noises? Loose trim flapping? Anything that might make your horse fear the trailer.
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Post by rescuestoribbons on Nov 29, 2007 23:02:07 GMT -5
Another very important thing to consider.... Have you RIDDEN in your trailer? When I see a horse with trailer issues, I like to hook up his trailer and take a ride in it myself. Both local roads and freeway. Are there strange noises? Loose trim flapping? Anything that might make your horse fear the trailer. That is a good idea!! Never thought of that before, and sounds like fun if your parents dont slam on the brakes!! ;D |
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) or even the broom bristles they aren't supposed to like the feel of. We had been using the John Lyons method, and that did work - sometimes.