Help with Bella (formerly Rhapsody)

[gypsy79]

Okay you guys, I'm coming back here because I know there are a lot of knowledgeable people here and that there are resources out there if we only ask.

Bella is fat, happy and a very sweet girl.

My problem is this: I need to get her trained because my intention is to ride her.

I have had her since September, when she came out of QT. I have worked with her on the ground and she is actually suppling up quite a bit, but is still a bit stiff to lateral pressure. I don't have a round pen, but I have lounged her in a paddock (BEFORE the mud) and she did okay, but needs more work as she wants to keep running back to the gate. I have a lady that is supposed to be a trainer and actually she put some hours on my well trained mares after they had their babies and got them tuned-up for me. The problem is, the "trainer" can ride anything, but that doesn't make her a true trainer. She has worked with Bella about 10 times and actually ridden her. Bella is very accepting of everything we are trying to do to her and with her. She accepts a saddle, pad, bridle, breast collar, all without any problem. She accepts a rider without any fuss. She can be jiggy when out riding and she also can be spooky. Her problem is that she has a very, very, very (lots more very's) hard mouth. We have tried riding her in a halter, a rope halter, a rope halter with knots at pressure points, a hackamore and finally an eggbutt snaffle bit.

I rode her and although I didn't fall off and she didn't run away with me, I did not feel in total control and secure on her.

Let me tell you about the ride: She saddled up just fine, as usual. I rode her down the driveway (I have a long driveway), but she really didn't want to go and I had to kick her for all I was worth to get her to go. Once we got to the end of the driveway, she finally decided that she might as well keep going. We walked down the street away from my house and she did a bit of jigging. It was not out of control and it wasn't as jarring as I thought it would be and I actually found myself giggling at this big girl and her antics. I was exhilarated to be up there (17 hands is BIG). About a block from my house is a vacant lot that is actually in the process of being developed. Right now, until development progresses, we have been riding here. I was riding along with my "trainer" who was riding one of my other mares. We were going along a grassy strip and there was a large flatbed trailer used for hauling bulldozers parked in the grass. Also, not far from the trailer was a rock a bit bigger than a basketball. When we got just even with the rock, Bella spooked a big spook. She literally jumped 3 feet straight to the left. I almost felt like a cartoon character that I once saw where the horse jumped out from underneath and there was the rider suspended in mid-air. It was a little unsettling, but I didn't fall off and regained correct riding position rather easily. I was happy with myself for not falling and glad that it was an obstacle overcome. The "trainer" said that it is the worst spook I will see from Bella, that she doesn't spook worse than what I had just experienced. So, good. We rode further. We headed towards the back of the property and just did a couple of figure 8's and stuff. The thing is with Bella, you can't just turn her in circles when she spooks or gets too energetic. If you try to turn her in circles to get her attention back on you, she turns fine on the front, but kind of hops around the circle on the back. It feels like pivoting on the front and bucking in the back. Very unsettling for me! I rode her across the back of the lot and out onto a side road. We rode to the end of that road (deadend) and turned back. There were a couple of dogs that came running out to greet us, barking. Bella was not impressed. The dogs don't bother her at all. We rode back the same way we came, back through the vacant lot. Only this time, we were heading home. BIG difference. I guess we'll say that she's barn sour. She really liked the idea of going back home. She wanted to go and it was very hard stopping her. She got so excited that she actuallyl jumped a mud puddle that she had stepped over on the first trip. Score another success for me. I had never jumped before on a horse. But now my shoulders were starting to ache with the effort to hold her back. The "trainer" kept telling me to shorten my reins because Bella needs direct contact with her mouth. Well I had the reins so short that I couldn't even sit in the saddle all the way. But truly, to have left them any longer was not wise because I had to pull back for all I was worth to get her to stop. And then she doesn't stay stopped! I ended up brusing my thumb and bending the thumbnail all the way back. I looked down at my hands and realized that I had blood running from my thumb and the reins were sticky with it. I made it back home, and actually, instead of riding back up my driveway, I rode past my house just to let her know that just because we were headed in that direction didn't mean that she was going home!

So I guess I'm asking for training advice or for someone who knows a trainer. I don't feel confident with the one I have. She told me that I just need to learn how to ride Bella, not that we can work on Bella's issues so she's better to ride. Am I wrong here?

The options as I see them:
1. get her trained. Although I am not rich, I can afford some training.
2. rehome her to somebody that needs a driving mare or who has more money to put into long-term training.
3. get lessons for myself.


Advice anyone?

[TashGaia]

I am probably going to be sending Tamarack to Darrel Dudley (sp?) this spring. I have heard excellent things about him from Hillary on this board as hasinger. Apparently she and her friends/family have had really good results with him, so maybe you can talk to her and see if you think he might work for you too. I think he is in Tacoma.

[wendyp]

Congrats on staying on thru the spooks!!!!

Okay, this is just my very humble opinion.........................

It sounds like Bella just doesn't know how to give to the bit - that's something that is learned, sometimes by using ground driving. Ground driving teaches the horse (from the ground) how to stop, turn, back, and give to the bit - all good things to know before getting on! Mark Rashid has a great ground driving DVD, and I think a new one coming out very soon. Now, if you had told me a few years ago that I needed to ground drive my PMU mare, I would have thought you were crazy. However, after attending a Rashid clinic, and Mark ground drove her, it made *all* the difference!!! I had been tossed twice because I had pulled too hard on her mouth, and she didn't like it! After three days of ground driving, I got back on her, and man-oh-man was she a different horse!

Sending her to a reputable trainer is also a great option. If you don't feel you can do it yourself, then by all means pay for a trainer! Selling her to someone else probably won't be in her best interests.............

There is a Kathleen Lindley clinic in Bend, Oregon, in May if you want to come down and audit it - hystyle or myself will probably be working our Perch cross 4 year olds, and includes ground driving...............hystyle is a little further along with hers, so she might actually ride Nitro. My filly needs *lots* of work before I can get on her!

Mark Rashids site is www.markrashid.com check his schedule of clinics - he might be coming to Othello, WA sometime in 2008. I highly recommend his clinics, they are truly enlightening.

WendyP/Bend, OR

[crum]

It sounds to me like you need a more experienced trainer to help you work through Bella's issues and hopefully in the process to help you work well together. I unfortunately don't have any local recommendations for you.

modified to add and the recommendations on doing some ground driving are a good beginning. One thing I would like to also recommend is something I picked up from the Ttouch methods which are working the horses mouth with your hands. I've been asked to work with some "hard" mouthed horses who really responded to this.

[nalasmom]

Truthfully, she just sound green...well neon green. She does not know what the bit means nor does she know what the leg means. Jumping sideways is an easy spook better than taking off. She will probably spook less as she grows up but they are horses and can always spook.

I also would not have a horse that green out of the arena but maybe thats just me. I like fences to run them into if need if they do not stop or if I fall off they are contained.

I would send her off for training if you are not happy with your current trainer or just let your current trainer ride her and you stay off her for a bit.

[gypsy79]

One of the things that I didn't add in my first post is that Bella knows what a bit is and she has been driven before. In fact, when we were riding her with just a rope halter, she would occasionally try to "fight" the bit. It would make us laugh at her because there was no bit, but her mouth would work like she was trying. It truly was funny. Then when I took the halter off, she would open her mouth to "spit out" the bit. Again, laughter!

After all the things we tried, she seemed to settle more with a bit than without. It almost seems that the bit was comforting to her... maybe because it was a familiar thing.

Also, Bella is not young. She is 12-14 according to CBER estimations and my "trainer" believes that's probably pretty close. So far, and as long as she's healthy, I won't use a vet unless it's necessary. If I ever have to have one out, I'll have him check and see what he thinks on her age.

I am wondering if she had a hard time being driven. I don't know anything about driving so I don't know if their techniques would make her have a harder mouth.....?

The "trainer" also thought that she did her little "pivot on the front, buck/hop on the back" from being driven. She thought it was why she didn't want to turn too tightly.

So there are more thoughts to chew on. I'm still open to thoughts on a trainer and recommendations on somebody as locally as possible.

Also, does anybody know of a lesson place locally?

Thanks everyone!

[rescuestoribbons]

wendyp said:

Congrats on staying on thru the spooks!!!!

Okay, this is just my very humble opinion.........................

It sounds like Bella just doesn't know how to give to the bit - that's something that is learned, sometimes by using ground driving. Ground driving teaches the horse (from the ground) how to stop, turn, back, and give to the bit - all good things to know before getting on! Mark Rashid has a great ground driving DVD, and I think a new one coming out very soon. Now, if you had told me a few years ago that I needed to ground drive my PMU mare, I would have thought you were crazy. However, after attending a Rashid clinic, and Mark ground drove her, it made *all* the difference!!! I had been tossed twice because I had pulled too hard on her mouth, and she didn't like it! After three days of ground driving, I got back on her, and man-oh-man was she a different horse!

Sending her to a reputable trainer is also a great option. If you don't feel you can do it yourself, then by all means pay for a trainer! Selling her to someone else probably won't be in her best interests.............

There is a Kathleen Lindley clinic in Bend, Oregon, in May if you want to come down and audit it - hystyle or myself will probably be working our Perch cross 4 year olds, and includes ground driving...............hystyle is a little further along with hers, so she might actually ride Nitro. My filly needs *lots* of work before I can get on her!

Mark Rashids site is www.markrashid.com check his schedule of clinics - he might be coming to Othello, WA sometime in 2008. I highly recommend his clinics, they are truly enlightening.

WendyP/Bend, OR

I totally agree!! That is what I am doing with Tolo right now, first we started out lunging, once you can lunge with side reins fine we moved to long linning, which is like driving but you have one rope around their butt and one connects like a lung line, once they are good with that you move to ground driving which is what we are workin on right now. It really teaches them to respect the bit and it is just like you are riding.
Also for the spooky thing, it could be just her but she could be bored and looking for something to do, keep her occupied by always doing something and rewarding it work on side passing and haunch turns just so she knows she has a job
JMO, It worked with my boys!!
Good luck! Hope it all works out ok for you ;D

[kidznhorses]

I definitely agree w/ Wendy! The first thing I would do though is get her away from your trainer! Having you shorten the reins and tighten up on her mouth is going to have the opposite effect and make Bella's mouth even harder. Either find a good Natural Horsemanship trainer in your area or take Bella to a clinic and work with her yourself. Jon Ensign will be at Mission Farrier School in Snohomish, Steve Rother is in your area on occasion or attend the Rashid clinic at Wendy's. Lots of options, just be sure and research the person you choose.

Good luck!

mta: It really sounds like she needs started from the ground with basics before you ride her for your own safety.

[beckybee]

Bella needs to learn to repond to pressure. A "hard" mouth is trained to be hard. She learned that when someone tugs and yanks on her mouth, she is supposed to ignore it.

My Manny is a pushy little guy - would run right over the top of you. Obviously a backyard pocket pocket pony. My trainer worked with "sensitizing" him to the slightest "commands". VERY quickly, he started listening for them. It's actually almost miraculous when the light bulb comes on.

From the ground she worked on yielding head, shoulder and hip. For example, she would place all 5 fingertips with maybe 2 lbs of pressure on his hip, and just wait. After 30, 15, 5, 60 seconds (or whatever), he would finally realize "something" was happening. The first time or two she would reward him (by release) for just becoming aware that she was asking something (baby steps!). Then reward (release) for a weight shift, then stepping over, then crossing over. Over days/weeks, work on both hips and both shoulders.

Same thing with the head. In a rope halter, stand in the horses left shoulder, and with the leadrope in your right hand, raise your right hand and put 2 lbs of pressure towards bringing her head back to her shoulder. Hold the position. Don't release, don't increase pressure, WAIT AS LONG AS IT TAKES for her to look toward you - huh? It's so hard to not give up and yank their head over! If her feet move with her head (typical), hold the lead, your hand and your body in the same relative position to her until her feet stop, then release. Do that on both sides. (One side usually is their more "natural" side - that's your one-rein stop side.)

I usually do a 3 or 4 good responses each session for each corner of the horse. Over days/weeks/months, the definition of "good" changes, but reward baby steps. You have to overcome 12 years of "desensitization" training!

I really recommend working with a good "natural horsemanship" trainer. I read lots of stuff and watched videos, but there's nothing like seeing it with your own eyes.

I agree that you shoud probably not go out on the trail with her until she is listening to you in the arena. The best thing about getting the horse to readily listen and yield to you is that, to them, it means you are the "boss." So when you do go out on the trail, she doesn't have to make the decision on what's scary or not, she'll come to trust you!

[cutiepiepmu]

First- good for you for having sticky pants and hanging in there! I understand what you are feeling since with my big percheron Kadin (19 hands 2600 pounds) he is very similar. He is actually VERY light as far as leg contact and he knows how to bend - but when he gets nervous - he is stiff, and the reality is - he will never be as light and flexible as a smaller QH - all that muscle mass in the neck tends to make them alot stiffer - so the key is - you have to work 5x harder to get her soft and supple and listening.

she is EXTREMELY green - I agree with everone on that - and many of the things she is doing, reflect that she is green - It seems bigger because she is bigger and not as flexible. I worry less about her mouth being hard per say - but more about how she bends through the neck and how responsive she is.

You definately need to start working with a new trainer. I suggest finding someone that works alot of methods simmilar to Dennis Reis. He is outstanding at getting a horse soft and quiet.

The one thing I recommend is that rather than riding out like you did - find yourself a confined area - and get her so that she will bend her head around with minimum pressure. not sure exactly how to describe it on here - but work on lateral bending with her standing still - I use a snatch and release with Kadin - lol. Sometimes it takes the little tugs to bump the nose over, but as SOON as you get her bending slightly - you have to give her head back to her.. It is all about quick reward for them to learn. I also bit Kadin to a surcingle several times a week and let him walk tight circles on h is own. He is now flexible enough that he can bend his head around to his armpit and hold it...but it took alot of time with his big ol neck to get to that point.

Having a draft I feel your pain - they are not trying to be bad - they are just big!!!

find a natural trainer who can help with lateral flexion as well as yeilding the hindquarters and you will be alot happier

Sara in WA

[watermarkfarm]

Bella sounds like a normal, super green horse that needs time and training with a confident coach. It sounds like people here have leads for you, so by what you describe, I think you need to find a place to send her where someone can give her a nice start and also work with both of you together ---- someone reasonably close to you so that you can have at least weekly lessons with Bella.

She sounds like a good horse --- just needs more education.

Katie

[quatzie]

If this mare is a driving horse, and hard mouthed. You need to start over like she knows nothing. Do not ride her out of a safe enclosed area until you have full control of her in walk, trot, and canter. Learn a one rein stop too. Don't short cut any steps go back like she knows nothing and start from there, ground training, long line, lunge, saddle, backing, working in an arena.

Use your voice she will understand that from driving. She is a draft too so you may need to learn some new voice commands for her to understand left, right direction: www.ruralheritage.com/ is a excellent source for information. You may want to take her to someone that knows how to drive and have her evaluated to see what type of driving horse you have. There maybe some history that can be discovered by having her driven. She probably had a hard handler in her life to get that hard mouth. The person may have trained her with contant pressure on the rein.

Horses that have been driven all their life, probable in pairs or more don't understand any aids outside of driving. It's all voice, whip, and long reins, hitch pressure ...and the comfort of another horse at her side.
I have trained two driving horses to ride and it's not an easy task, get a trainer that understands driving and riding that will make her life much more easier and yours. Remember she's coming from a different line of work in to something she's ever done before.
Watch RVD-TV Rural Heritage TV program and how they work the drafts and what they say it's a different life ...
I hope this is helpful

[kivasgirl]

Hey, you might want to talk with the trainer's I've been using: Terry and Matney Cook of TLC Training: www.tlchorsemanship.com
They just relocated from a barn in Mount Vernon to Black Raven Stables in Arlington:
www.blackravenstables.com/
You'll notice on the Black Raven web-site that they are hosting a Ken McNabb clinic in February. I watched part of his clinics there last fall. Ken's web-site: www.kenmcnabb.com/
My mare Kiva (CBER Neon) has been with Terri and Matney since early November. They are kind, gentle trainer's and they have been re-starting Kiva and looking for the holes in her training.
Give them a call, or come and visit them at Black Raven. I know they will be there tomorrow (Saturday).

[crum]

I was catching up on this thread and I have a question. You mentioned you used an eggbutt snaffle bit on her at one point. What sort of mouthpiece did it have? The reason I am wondering is that some draft driving horses are more familiar with a mullen mouth or straight bar mouthpiece on their snaffle bits. It may be that the different type of pressure created by a jointed snaffle is something that she really does not understand how to respond to properly yet.

I see someone else suggested having her evaluated with someone familiar with driving horses and specifically the drafts and I definitely think that seems like a good idea.

[wendyp]

One more thought - you were talking about her hopping in the rear, and not really giving, when asked to turn..............you might have a good chiropractor look at her - she may not be *able* to move the way you are asking her to.

WendyP/Bend, OR

[halfwayhome]

Along with everything said here, also please consider getting her mouth evaluated by a true equine dentist. She could very well have some teeth or even tongue issues. There have been several rescue horses that virtually almost had their tongues severed from previous bad handling and it wasn't known until there was a complete exam. Bad teeth, mouth pain can all cause issues that manifest in many evasive behaviours that can be misinterpreted.

[watermarkfarm]

Heidi brings up a great point! DENTAL is #1 to consider------and old mouth injuries.

My board clients took their Belgian gelding to a local John Lyons-certified trainer. This jerk was over his head and ended up nearly severing the horse's tongue with a stud chain. So the horse will always have bit issues, among other things.

Some horses have a low palate and the single jointed snaffle hits them. I use French (double jointed) snaffles whenever I can. I find most horses love them.

[wendyp]

watermarkfarm said:

Heidi brings up a great point! DENTAL is #1 to consider------and old mouth injuries.

My board clients took their Belgian gelding to a local John Lyons-certified trainer. This jerk was over his head and ended up nearly severing the horse's tongue with a stud chain. So the horse will always have bit issues, among other things.

I adopted Pierce off the lot and when I had his teeth done, my vet showed me where his tongue had been almost severed. It had healed, and looked normal at the front, but he had a very obvious scar back further. He also had some scars at the corners of his mouth. Turns out, it looks like he was a barrel horse. He went to a wonderful girl in LaGrande, OR and was doing great as a 4H/parade/western eq horse. He didn't have any problems with a bit, and was a *wonderful* horse - just ask Hystyle.

How hard do you have to pull back to cut a horses tongue off? Never mind, I never want to know............

WendyP/Bend, OR

[apache]

Gypsy...you wrote: If you try to turn her in circles to get her attention back on you, she turns fine on the front, but kind of hops around the circle on the back. It feels like pivoting on the front and bucking in the back.
Many horses simply cannot cross one hind leg over the other. This is something that I work through with many cber unbroke horses. Simple lead bys back and forth gently and slowly will make all the difference. Greg Eliel is super and has vast experience. Learn for yourself and work her yourself. Sending her off to a trainer blows me away, so many people opt out of the experience. The greatest trainer in the world has only been taught by the horses themselves. And every horse offers a new experience. Parelli is the easiest system to follow and has different levels that the horses think are so much fun. The learning never ends.
The wonder bit has 3 rings and a snaffle mouth. You can transfer the reins to different levels for different degrees of pressure.
Time and more time......she is still learning to trust you.
All in all, it sounds like you have a great potential trail horse in Bella. Scary as it was for her, she held it together for you. When you go out again, plan at a certain sopt to reward her...grazing time or hide a bag of treats somewhere out there that you can stop at and allow her to enjoy. This way she will think about that destination and it will begin to be fun. Trust me on this one.
dental check and chiropractor of course. When declared okay, you could begin to ride softly spiraling in to the right and back out and then in to the left and back out. Walking only until she can begin to learn to bend. She may be dealing with set muscles from driving.
Think relaxation and rehabilitation. Rest and trust. Ground work beginning to learn how to do lead bys and crossovers. Easy mounted work, one rein...spiral work. Massive praise at all times. Look up parelli level one.
If a horse feels they cannot move all 4 feet the suddenly feel trapped and the flight instinct is instant. The hopping around the hind end is a dead giveaway.
I am tired and hope this makes sense!!!!!!!!

[bbrandha]

Re: cut tongues

We have a retired racehorse whose tongue is still cut in two, but doesn't seem to give him problems. We do ride him with a hackamore. Our vet said he sees quite a few former racehorses with this injury and that it is caused by having a loop of wire put around the jaw and tongue so they can't fight the bit as well.

I doubt Bella was ever a racehorse, though. Wouldn't that be a sight!!??

Brigette

[gypsy79]

I want to thank everyone for their kind suggestions.

My plan is to definitely do the ground driving. If I can get her listening to me better from the ground, as I have heard before, that should transfer to better listening while under saddle. I think I'm going to hold off on sending her to a trainer.... at least for now. I consider it a possible option, but it's not my favorite thing to do. I once sent a mare off for training. She spent 2 months at the trainers and when she came back, she wasn't quite the same. I just don't like to have them out of my care for that long.

If I can ride Bella the way she is, which I did, then with the ground work and ground driving, I should be able to successfully get her going. Suppling up is what I want and that will come with lots of work and TIME. I think my biggest fear is falling off. If I can stay on through her "big" spook, then I can probably stay on her through just about anything. I don't feel that she will buck me off.

to kidznhorses: I do plan to keep her away from this trainer. I agree, her methods are ultimately going to make her mouth harder. I would also like to hit a clinic.

to beckybee: I have used some natural horsemanship techniques in the past. I have worked the Parelli games with other horses I own and have also applied some to Bella. My favorite "celebrity" trainer seems to be Clinton Anderson. I watch his shows on RFD-TV and I have his book.

to cutiepiepmu: Thanks for the compliment about my "sticky pants." Bella is so broad I almost feel that I have to try to fall off. Now watch, I have jinxed myself and the next time I do ride, I'll fall right off. Ouch! I would love to ride Bella in an arena, but I don't have one and my place is kind of muddy right now. The first order of business is to work the ground work as much as possible until things start to dry out around here.

to wendyp and apache: I know that her hopping in the back is from anxiety or excitement. I have asked for her to flex on the ground (using my natural horsemanship techniques learned from videos and literature from Pat Parelli and Clinton Anderson) and I have also asked her to yield to hip pressure by pivoting on the front and crossing over in the back. She has successfully done this repeatedly for me on the ground. I think what I need is more time.

to bbrandha: I have seen Bella gallop across the pasture, but I truly doubt that she was a racehorse. ;D


So, again, my many thanks to everyone.

I will plan to work on the ground manners and actually learn ground driving. I'm guessing it will be at least a month before I'm back up on her back. Watch for updates. I'm thinking it will be much more successful next time! Then watch for the pictures of that one!!!!

[cybercat]

Oh, good luck to you and Bella, Gypsy! We all love the drafties!