Balking horse (aka stubborn s.o.b.)

[beckybee]

Sweet little Manny (Magicman) is at times a little turd. Yes, it's true. I wanted to see if I could get a little guidance before I screw him up.

Brief rundown of his personality:
He's a pocket pony. LOVES scratches (sticks his butt in your face for them). Never flinches. Never spooks. Smack him, poke him, push him - he doesn't move. Saddled him, bridled him, no problem (haven't gotten on). Doesn't respect personal space. Doesn't yield from pressure very well. Release from pressure, not a reward 'cause he doesn't care what you do to him as long as you're touching him.

Immediate problem:
At the stable we moved to on Sunday, Web & Manny are up a dirt road from the arena/roundpen. At the arena, we have to go though a barn lined with occupied horse stalls with big roll-up doors on either end.
I walked Manny there yesterday and today. Yesterday he hesitated in a couple places, cried a little, but generally walked briskly down the road. Hesitated at the doors on either end of the barn (snatched a bite of hay in the middle) but did great there and back.

(By the way, it was wonderful to see him in the roundpen. He's always so laid back, but there he was a spirited boy. Seeing him run for the first time was the best christmas present I could have gotten!)

So today, he kept stopping frequently from the beginning. The two methods that seem to work are circling and going way out front to the end of the leadrope, giving one quick tug then absolute slack. (Tried this next to him, but doesn't work. I don't really like being 8 feet in front of a young horse in a new situation, making him move toward me, especially with his "personal space" issues. When he pushes into me, I get big and/or elbow him, so it's getting better.)

Going out to the roundpen, he stopped at the doors on either end, but was fairly direct. As we approached, I increased my forward energy to keep him moving going both ways. On the way back, it took 5 minutes to circle his way through the barn and also stopped a few times outside. This was even with Web occasionally calling for him and it nearing dinnertime.

A "carrot stick" is worthless. Even in the roundpen (today), I tried everything short of beating him with it to make him move but it had no effect.

We made it there and back and he got to run around in the roundpen, so it was overall a success. I'm just concerned with him learning bad leading habits.

Oh, to make matters more humiliating, the bugger yields like a champ to Web. Web just has to look at him crossways and Manny scuttles out of the way. He isn't scared of Web at all, just VERY respectful. How do I gain his respect without biting, kicking and chasing him away from his food? I don't want him scared of me. Well, maybe a little.

He's 3-4 years old, by the way. I'm tempted to hop on and see if it's any different from up top. Any advice would be more than welcome.

[Tockita]

Sounds very much like my Chester! He is a pushy pig but the most solid unflappable horse you could ever want. The clinics at Lifesavers have been perfectfor us because Chris gets after me if I am lacking in my application of pressure. She makes me get up in energy when I need to and to keep applying pressure even if it means slapping him HARD with the rope. He has learned when Mom means business and I can just wave a hand, stomp a foot or thurst my shoulder and he will move off most of the time now.

I am sure you will get some excellent advice here, but you can also ask here
ajsblueskyranch.proboards89.com/index.cgi

She doesn't update as often as she should but she's getting better!

[piopico]

JustinTyme is like that too. Also a 3 year old. He was SOoooo slow initially, and not responsive to the halter........not quick enough for ME, that is. But I've been very pleased with the "Be Nice" Halter I bought. It has a 'squeeze' action to it, and he now leads at a reasonable speed, ties without pulling back, and lunges much better in that, than in the Lunging Cavesson I bought.

[mkgbuegel]

Ground work, Groud work, and more Groud work. I'd say you are working with a horse that doesn't fully understand what you want and a horse that does not respect you yet as his leader. Which in my experience is one of the most common problems, put the 2 together and you get allot of frustration for both horse & rider.

Its hard to say what to do with out seeing the horse and you working together, but I wouldn't personally suggest getting on his back yet. If he doesn't understand and isn't respecting you on the ground it won't be different on his back.

Is it possible for you to take a video of he & you working?

[beckybee]

Thanks mk. I'll see what I can do about the video. We're spectacularly unimpressive!

In the roundpen, he mainly trots or walks briskly back and forth along the 1/2 of the circle nearest the exit. He usually keeps moving, so I've been trying to intervene to stop his about face and make him continue around. Blocking his way with my body or the lunge whip is ineffective. He isn't scared of the whip at all. I guess I need to take the intervention up a notch? I've snapped it behind him, tapped his butt, hocks and heels he completely ignores it.

I've tried him loose and on a line. I prefer loose because if I try to pull him around, he just heads right for me. I'm kind of inept at this point at juggling the "tools," thinking, walking and chewing gum at the same time. Actually, thinking about this, maybe I'll try a 12' rope and a shorter stick to get his attention.

I understand the respect on the ground = respect in saddle. Part of my push to get in the saddle is that there is a horsemanship clinic in late January that you have to be on the horse to attend. We don't get very many opportunities like this in our area.

[mkgbuegel]

It really sounds like you are dealing with a young, nervous, uncertain horse and probably not a stubborn one. With horses like that you really need to make sure that you spend as much time as needed to gain the horses trust, give the horse confidence he needs to be able to do the work. You might also want to pay close attention to what you are feeling when you are out working with him. If you are focused on anything other than the work at hand, he will probably feel it. Sensitive horses can make the absolute best partners, but they take a bit more work in the beginning.

[beckybee]

Don't tell me Manny's sensitive! If he's sensitive, Web's off the chart!

Yes, he is nervous and uncertain when he leaves the safety of his stall and Web. I'm trying to separate them (take one out at a time) as much as possible. It would be easy to take them out together, but I'm trying to break that dependancy.

When we are in his pen, he follows me around for scratches and will walk over the top of me if I'm in his way. When he is outside, he is alert and anxious to be leaving Web. In the roundpen, he completely ignores me until he tires himself out and comes for scratches. I was going to try to take his nervous energy and try to direct it.

He has a lot more energy lately. His leg is doing much better, so I think we are seeing more of who he really is (3 year old, green, wb). When I show up, he starts pacing circles in his pen and really wants to get out and go. The problem is that he has to leave his comfort zone to do so.

I figured after he stopped and I got him going again a dozen or so times, he would realize it does him no good to stop. I'm concerned the little test of wills may become a habit. It's just crazy because he does it both ways, away from and back to his pen.

I'll pay attention to where I'm at more.

Oh, crazy thing this afternoon: I've been working on picking up Manny's feet. He's generally fine about his front and I've done a little filing on them (already looking better), but just for really short periods. He isn't as cooperative on his back feet, so I'm holding them up as long as I can before he starts resisting. (I haven't pushed it because the old injuries may be causing some pain.) Occasionally when I pick up his front feet, he leans into me, so I push him up, wait a little, then put his foot back down. This afternoon, I had one of his front feet up, and as he leaned I just held it up. He wasn't trying to pull away, so I thought to just ride it through - he wouldn't let himself fall over, right? Well he just starts collecting his back legs under him and starts laying down! He'll lay down and roll right next to me, but this was weird.

[mkgbuegel]

Sounds like hes got some pain going on in the alternate front hoof, probably in the toe. Some horses will lay down, stretch out, lean back, what ever they can do to get the pressure off the painful hoof.

[beckybee]

Wow - you're crazy good! He does have an old abscess/coronary band injury moving down that foot. It's about 1/3 the way down from the top. Wouldn't he be limping if it hurt him? How do I work on his feet? I could give him a squirt of Web's bute, he's not using it!

[mkgbuegel]

No, they don't always limp if it hurts. Sometimes they only really hurt when they have to put full wieght on it. If he's blown out an abcess he most likely has something going on inside the hoof (which is all to common with rescues)and probalby to some degree, in all four hooves. With out looking at the hooves I can't really say the best way to approach trimming. Sometimes its just a matter of getting pressure off the sore toe, sometimes its more than that. If its possible for you to get side view and sole pics of his hooves I could give you a better idea on how to relieve the pain/pressure.

[beckybee]

I didn't get pictures today - I'll have more time tomorrow. This is sort of a catch 22: their feet are causing pain, but can't work on them because they hurt too much. I think I should bail on the slow & easy route and have the vet come out and tranq them and have the barefoot trimmer whack them back all at once. It sucks because Manny's front feet already look way better from the nibbling I've done.

[mkgbuegel]

You don't have to do that, if your trimmer is good and is patient, she should be able to take the hooves down enough in one trimming to give significant comfort. Who do you use in your area?
Pain can be greatly relieved with in just a few minutes, most horses understand this as soon as the trimmed hoof hits the ground.

[beckybee]

Just got a recommendation for a trimmer/natural horse trainer. I trimmed my horses' feet the whole time I was growing up, but they were already versed in the basics - this was over 20 years ago, before barefoot caught on. We just saw they had healthier feet and were more comfortable without shoes. (Also, couldn't afford to get the farrier out )

My biggest problem is lack of experience with the young horses. I don't know if Manny's ignorant, impatient or hurting. Well, actually probably a little of each! Like the laying down thing - he didn't seem to be expressing any discomfort (not trying to pull away) so I took it as either "why has she holding my foot up? Maybe this is what she wants me to do" or "Let her try to hold my foot up when I'm laying down!" I've been tentative on the back because those nasty cuts he had at the lot are still healing. At this point when he tries to pull away, he's either being 1) a brat or 2) he's in pain. I need to be persistant for 1, but if it's 2, persistance will make the process worse in the long run. If he's laying down from pain, how can a trimmer circumvent that without painkillers or tranq?

modifed to add: not arguing, just thinking out loud

[mkgbuegel]

I've only seen a few horses over the years that had to be tranq'd to work on the them and they were all pretty severe abuse cases, it was more about terror than pain. Horses, even in the most pain from laminitis/founder, can usually stand for a few seconds while you take off the worst offending pieces of hoof. You always start on the the hoof that hurts the most, trim it to be less painful. When you put it back down the horse usually notices the reduced pain and will more willingly allow work on the other hoof or hooves. It takes patience & time & usually isn't a very fast process, but you almost always end up with a horse that is far more willing to be trimmed the second time and so on.

On a personal level I don't believe horses try to be difficult, ever. I believe when they resist that they are trying to communicate something to us. Pain, fear, lack of understanding, conditioned response. Horses are pretty honest about their feelings.

If you feel a tranq. is the best way to go, I respect that, you are the one their working him each day, I am just suggesting a slower approach, but I also know my slow approach isn't for everyone.

If you are interested here are some sites with very good trim info and fun to look at:
www.healthyhoof.com/
www.barefoothorse.com/
www.ironfreehoof.com/

I know how it is coming back to horses after many years away, we remember everything from when we were kids but for some reason the things we used to do them don't seem to work the same now. It can be rather frustrating. Hang in there, go with your gut, and enjoy the process.

[beckybee]

I contacted the trimmer/trainer today. She sounds great! She's coming out tomorrow, I'll let you know how it goes. She was very happy to hear where the boys are because of their excellent roundpen. She says if they get antsy, she roundpens them a bit. It will be nice to see what she does with Manny!

In preparation, I took Web down to the roundpen today so it wouldn't be a big surprise tomorrow. No real plan to do anything except let him see the joint. His ankle is getting much better so I figured it would be okay if he ran around a little bit.

Oh man, he is beautiful! (I'm not biased!) I will definitely bring the camera tomorrow! It is so wonderful to see them kick up their heels and run the first time. Web was trotting, cantering, bucking, rolling, wheeling! Stepping high, head collected - awesome! It's bittersweet because I'm so grateful they have a chance when I know so many others don't.

Web is really a roundpen natural. He'd start cutting across, and I would just gesture and he would run to the outside. I didn't want to wind him up and overdo it on his leg, though. All right, how do I stop him? I was an idiot and went to the gate to get his lead, Web came around, saw me, cut inside, stopped in the middle, looked at me, ears pricked "what are you doing THERE?" Okay, let's trade places, moved him off, he ran around a few more times. Now what? "Hey Web!" He stops, looks at me. I hold out my hand, click-click, "c'mere Web." He walked right up to me! Snap on his lead, head out the gate.

This one's going to be easy if I don't screw him up first! It's ironic that the mishandled, flighty one is easier than the pocket pony! I realize how much he's come to trust me when "others" come to his fence to pet him or try to give him treats.

Sorry for my rambling stories. I know that this is old hat for a lot of you, and what seems like major milestones for me are nothing in the big picture. I'm just still amazed by these boys and when it's dark outside, I'm still thinking about them!

I met Cherie & Red today at their stable. She reminded me of 2 things: 1) these two have been moved around a lot in the last couple months and need time to settle in, 2) they are young and will test their limits and me, so be consistent!

[mkgbuegel]

"Sorry for my rambling stories. I know that this is old hat for a lot of you, and what seems like major milestones for me are nothing in the big picture."

It sounds like you guys had a very successful day, you should be proud. They are milestones, and every success you have with them adds up, one on top of the next. I think its great and I hope your appointment goes well today. Look forward to your updates.

[beckybee]

Well, the trimmer got 3 feet done in 3 hours! 3 for Manny (2 1/2 hours), 0 for Web (1/2 hour). She and Manny spun 100s of circles and she was completely dumbfounded that a horse could be so completely resistant to just picking up a foot. She gave up on the one with the old injuries (stopped with a short controlled pick up and set down). At least the other hoof won't keep banging it now so hopefully it will finish healing more quickly. I have to give her an A for persistence!

Since he was fine with me picking up and picking his front feet for the first 3 weeks, I don't know what to conclude. Even yesterday I could get his three good feet held off the ground within a couple minutes for each (which I thought was bad). It took her a half hour to get him to even take the weight off each foot, let alone hold it up.

Since the 1st day he was home, I would just run my hand down his leg, lightly squeeze the tendon about half way down his cannon, and say "leg up." If he didn't at least shift his weight immediatly, I would lean into him, then pick his foot up. I was careful to put it down slowly and controlled before he got resistant. The back he wasn't as comfortable with lifting up & back and I didn't push it because I didn't want to be fighting with any possible pain from his injuries and learn to resist. I was doing the pulling forward with the rope behind the leg thing because he was he was comfortable and easy with that and would totally give me his leg.

By the way, he stands still for everything else: blankets drug all over him, saddle, bridle, raking around his feet, ropes dangled all over, including wrapped aroud his legs. Either something changed drastically physically or he has decided to just not pick up his feet. He'll do anything to not pick up the foot you want: try to lay down, pick up any of the other three feet, plant his foot, walk away on three feet. He's not striking, biting, kicking or rearing, thank god! Each foot was exactly the same - no transferrence. Also, put one down, try to pick the same up again was like starting completely over. I was impressed - she showed no frustration or impatience.

With Web, we decided fairly quickly to have me work on him a couple more weeks before she tries again. He's still too spooky and scared of strangers. Plus, she was pretty worn out from what Manny put her through. She ended on one controlled pick up, hold, and place down.

We'll keep on keeping on...

[beckybee]

By the way, he's still stopping and resisting moving forward, but the stops are shorter!

[beckybee]

I don't know who that horse was, by my little Manny is a perfect boy!

(We had a VERY good day!)