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Post by TashGaia on Sept 26, 2007 14:05:32 GMT -5
Glad to hear that he is doing better  |
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Post by carly1964 on Sept 26, 2007 14:14:49 GMT -5
Mustangappy, was he in quarantine with other horses? Is it possible another horse kept him away from the feed and water? I'm glad to hear that he is doing better, but I am still shocked that the vet refused to speak to you, and there has been no explanation to you for his condition.
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Post by MustangAppy on Sept 26, 2007 15:25:29 GMT -5
If he was in QT, my understanding is that he should have been isolated. That is why CBER only has certain facilities for that purpose. The idea isn't to continue to spread diseases to other horses, but to contain them. There are distances between pens and so on that must be in place. There should be no mixing of animals. Since I have seen Sam's set up, I know how it is done there, but Dazz wasn't at Sam's.
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Post by TashGaia on Sept 26, 2007 15:57:07 GMT -5
Have you asked Deb what his setup was? If another horse was stealing his food that would indicate to me that he just needs food and will be fine...
MTA, was Cimmeron in with him? They were on the lot together and were pulled together, so maybe they were QTed with each other? They have already posted about how Cimmeron eats everything (including cozmos! LOL!) and that he is in real good shape, so maybe he ate Dazzler's food?
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Post by frr2 on Sept 26, 2007 16:02:44 GMT -5
Cimmeron didn't go without, that's for sure.
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Post by djrepp on Sept 26, 2007 16:14:41 GMT -5
I talked to Katie about your horse. From what I told her, she believes he will be ok. She says when they spray urine, they get very stressed. He has had a lot of stress, being taken from his home to the lot then into QT, having a URI, can't urinate, being kicked, then being put back in a trailer. She just hauled her TB to Kansas. He was stressed the whole way as she did the trip in 4 days via San Francisco. She trailered at night when they went through the hot part! He was able to move around as she has a 3 horse slant. She gave him bran before she left and electrolytes along the way. She said he dropped some weight but was doing fine once he landed. Horses are very interesting. I wish you and your guy all the best. He will soon be beautiful again.
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Post by watermarkfarm on Sept 26, 2007 16:23:19 GMT -5
Regarding the spraying urine thing, if it continues after he settles, it *can* be a symptom of urinary tract stones. If there are little ones, they can wind up in the urethra and impede the flow of urine (and cause things like spraying). Keep an eye on him to see if he strains when urinating and also if there is any pink or cloudy urine, especially at the end of the urine stream.
This can be diagnosed with an ultrasound and/or scope and also urinalysis.
If you have any questions, let me know. I went thru bladder stone surgery with another rescue horse earlier this year and learned a lot. It is quite treatable.
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Post by TashGaia on Sept 26, 2007 16:24:27 GMT -5
NM about Dazzler and Cimmeron being in together... just found out that Cimmeron wasn't with Dazzler. I don't know if Dazzler was alone or not, but Cimmeron wasn't with him.
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Post by MustangAppy on Sept 26, 2007 17:08:29 GMT -5
I have never really thought about how geldings pee, it isn't a topic that particularly grabbed my attention. But, what I have noticed, is that Pal extends before he pees, every time. Dazz doesn't, which may be part of why he is spraying. I have not see him extend even once in the days he has been here. I don't have a lot of horses to compare to, just Pal, who is a very happy gelding, so not sure if the fact that Dazz doesn't extend indicates a problem or not, but I will bring it up to the vet as well. Modified to add that I examined his stream pretty closely (ask my shoes), and there is no discoloration to the pink end of the spectrum. A bit cloudy, perhaps, from the sample I took.
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Post by MustangAppy on Sept 26, 2007 21:50:37 GMT -5
I was able to get Dazzler to let me check his foot today. The grossly enlarged pastern appears to have hard cacifications, it is not swelling. I cannot see this distortion in his lot photos, so I can only assume that is what they were referring to as his injury site. I noticed his nose is running, but only on the side where his eye is inflamed, so I am assuming it is related to that. I put some antibiotic ointment on his facial abrasions, and brushed out his matted and dreadlocked tail. It wasn't much in the way of any real help for him, but it made me feel better. Chris had an emergency call, so she wasn't able to come over. We are hoping she can drop by in the morning on her way to work to get the blood drawn.
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Post by cybercat on Sept 26, 2007 21:56:24 GMT -5
Is he eating any better today?
Oh, and just to mention that my mini gelding also extends to urinate...
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Post by ptowne on Sept 26, 2007 21:58:12 GMT -5
I'll bet it makes him feel better to get the dreads out, too. In fact, I'll bet it makes him feel better to be cared for. Before long he'll be calling to you when he hears you.
Pam
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Post by MustangAppy on Sept 26, 2007 23:35:50 GMT -5
He is eating, but I noticed he sifts his hay carefully and only eats the leaves and ends of the stalks. Sis thinks she is being killed because we are letting him glean what he wants, and giving her his hay leftovers. She is plump enough, thanks, and this keeps her busy without putting more weight on her. He isn't crazy about his Manna Pro Senior, and I even pureed an apple and a few carrots and poured over it. Mind you, apples and carrots by themselves are just fine by him. I am finding this annoying because I am putting his bute on top of his grain, and he is mostly pushing it around and then dumping it out. He eventually eats it, but the bute is getting lost in all the dumping and stirring, and not getting into him. I am certain his teeth or mouth are bothering him, and that is why he is being picky. He didn't want me to look at his mouth, he just clamps it shut, and no amount of thumbs inserted from the side will open it. He just goes, "Yeah, I know that trick, and I still don't care." I wanted to see if he had a lip tatoo. No way can I peel back a clamped lip. He does have a stubborn streak, no doubt about that.
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Post by ptowne on Sept 27, 2007 8:35:11 GMT -5
Yeah, I think that is called Appytude. When I bute my horses I have to really mix it up in their grain or it doesn't get in either. You might even wet his grain down, mixing in the bute to create a sort of mash. Then he can't pick around anything. If his teeth are bothering him, the mash will be easier for him to eat.
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Post by frr2 on Sept 27, 2007 8:46:02 GMT -5
Another suggestion for the bute might be to syringe it in, to make sure he's really getting this entire dose. Otherwise, I'd mix the bute with a very small amount of grain, hand feed it to him so you know he got it, THEN give him his whole bucket.
It sounds like he's settling in. Definitely going to feel better when he's cleaned and can pee better.
Peg
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Post by watermarkfarm on Sept 27, 2007 14:10:20 GMT -5
Mustang Appy, it sounds like you are doing a super job with this guy. He is lucky to have you. Getting his teeth handled will probably help. Our pony gets off her feed when one tooth gets loose and is ready to fall out (she is very old). She eats ONLY soaked hay pellets and does great.
Glad you are keeping an eye on his urination! When you guys draw blood, catch some urine for a urinalysis. They are cheap.
Keep us posted. Katie
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Post by jenm on Sept 27, 2007 15:02:32 GMT -5
A friend of mine dissolves her bute in some sugar water and then mixes it in the grain. Seems like a good trick to me!
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Post by janet on Sept 27, 2007 16:53:58 GMT -5
A friend of mine dissolves her bute in some sugar water and then mixes it in the grain. Seems like a good trick to me! I use a little maple syrup. |
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Post by MustangAppy on Sept 27, 2007 21:56:12 GMT -5
Dazzler's backbone is already less prominent, and it hasn't even been a week. He was not getting enough food, period. My trainer was out today, and Dazz likely has ringbone that is heavily calcified in the front of the pastern. We will know how bad it is after he is assessed with x-rays. She says he is at least 200 pounds underweight, and needs his teeth floated (yeah, that I pretty well knew). He is peeing better, and able to extend easier, Brian was able to get a handful of crap out of his sheath with just the hose and his fingers today. Poor kid, he just eats, drinks, and sleeps in about 2 hours shifts. Gut sounds are good, and he ate all his senior feed today. Eyes are still pink, we are going to try the fly mask in the daytime. Farrier will also be out for a consult next week once we have the x-rays and know what we are dealing with.  |
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Post by afinenettle on Sept 27, 2007 22:04:28 GMT -5
Dazzler's backbone is already less prominent, and it hasn't even been a week. He was not getting enough food, period. My trainer was out today, and Dazz likely has ringbone that is heavily calcified in the front of the pastern. We will know how bad it is after he is assessed with x-rays. She says he is at least 200 pounds underweight, and needs his teeth floated (yeah, that I pretty well knew). He is peeing better, and able to extend easier, Brian was able to get a handful of crap out of his sheath with just the hose and his fingers today. Poor kid, he just eats, drinks, and sleeps in about 2 hours shifts. Gut sounds are good, and he ate all his senior feed today. Eyes are still pink, we are going to try the fly mask in the daytime. Farrier will also be out for a consult next week once we have the x-rays and know what we are dealing with. OK so shoot me. But I think it is pertinent to ask how this could happen in quarantine. Are there no answers from whomever? Is it private information? |
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Post by MustangAppy on Sept 27, 2007 22:18:13 GMT -5
I haven't been given any answers yet, but believe me, the questions have been asked. I don't know what will be done about it, I just don't want it to happen to anyone else's horse. I go out and look at him, and just feel sick and sad. We paid for a beautiful gelding that was sound at assessment, in good weight, and who we were told may have been kicked on the lot and was limping as a result. You can't possibly have missed that ringbone, it is huge. That, I guess comes with taking on a horse you did not yourself lay eyes on, but what happened to him in quarantine can't be so easily dismissed. $300 would have bought me 3 ton of hay here, enough for one horse for half a year.
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Post by lowland on Sept 27, 2007 23:08:45 GMT -5
Glad you are asking questions -- hopefully you will get answers. Your $300 would have definitely been spent better elsewhere  Good luck with your beautiful new boy. |
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Post by webmistress32 on Sept 28, 2007 11:17:39 GMT -5
I was thinking if you this morning while I was feeding our Junior. Please give the soaked beet pulp a try they love it so much and you can make him a ton of it morning and night. It is HIGH FAT no carbs and will really help.
Here is a recipe to try:
1. 6 cups water in bucket
2. add 2 heaping cups dry beet pulp
3. add 3/4 cup flax seed
Let soak about 4-6 hours
4. add 2 cups Stabilized Rice Bran
Mix and feed.
If you have loose minerals, sprinkle those on top.
Junior goes nuts at feeding time, circling around in his stall and singing (this high-pitched squealing thing) He just loves it and it put weight on him like nothing. I don't trust those packaged Sr. Feeds lots and lots of sugar just begs for Ulcers - then you really have a problem.
Laura
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Post by webmistress32 on Sept 28, 2007 11:29:34 GMT -5
by the way I forgot to mention I have all Appys at home too. I do keep a mask on Junior at all times his scelera get all red and irritated otherwise. My other appys are not so sensitive as he is.
when he gets drippy and droopy like yours I think at this time of year they get allergenic to whats in the air and I put ointment in and a mask on.
Junior eats hay the same way as Dazzler does, he goes to the bottom and eats all the leafy parts and leaves the stalks. I throw those out to our leopard 1/2 app 1/2 percheron who will eat anything.
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Post by cybercat on Sept 28, 2007 13:03:16 GMT -5
webmistress32- what does your Appy-Perch look like? That could be an incredible combo....
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Post by webmistress32 on Sept 28, 2007 16:47:01 GMT -5
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Post by emjay on Sept 28, 2007 16:54:23 GMT -5
he's neat looking.
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Post by MustangAppy on Sept 28, 2007 18:00:36 GMT -5
I will be posting weekly photos of Dazzler until he is at a safe weight, then I will be resigning from this board and all other contact with CBER. The photo updates will occur every Sunday. I will not be active on the board otherwise. Thank you to everyone who has offered help and support.
Modified to add that I was very upset when I posted above. Sam has been fantastic and is looking into things. My vet's findings will help answer a few questions as well. My prior experience with CBER and quarantine at Sam's went great, we had photos, updates, and no problems with getting information. One bad apple doesn't have to spoil the whole bunch, as they say.
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Post by ptowne on Sept 28, 2007 18:56:30 GMT -5
Actually beet pulp has very little fat, only 1.5% of the total calories and it does have carbs. It is, however, very low on the glycemic scale which means that it doesn't spike their blood sugar the way simple sugars do. So you can feed way more of it than other cereal grains without risking colic or laminitis giving them more total calories.
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Post by pnp4kidz on Sept 28, 2007 19:09:46 GMT -5
But all that flax and rice bran have tons of fat, so I think she was thinking of the whole recipe.
just my 'take' on it...
and both of the flax and rice bran are high on the glycemic index... and have simple carbs.
all of mine do the rooting around to eat the 'good stuff' first in hay...
mine has some alfalfa, so I think the tossing and rooting gets the leaves off the stems... then they nibble up the leaves and flowers.... and, sigh, if they are done and still hungry, they eat the stems. :-)
I did send stems of alfalfa in for a test once btw, and the sugar is very low! they were a very good 'treat' for my IR guy! high fiber, moderate protien, and low sugar... hmmm... I had one horse who ate only the leaves and flowers, and another who then got the stems. two happy horses.
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Good luck with your beautiful new boy.