Pick up your feet!

[beckybee]

Does anyone have any tricks to get a horse to pick up his feet when he walks? Raz stumbles quite a bit. Sam thought he might have had some sort of ataxia in his hind end, vet in WA said "no," but seems arthritic in his front end, especially something in he LF.

What I see - he barely picks up his feet at a walk - just moseys along, feet barely skimming the ground. Dum de dum. I think he has/had some sort of shoulder injury on his left- doesn't limp per se, but that foot lands heavy (swinging leg lameness?). If he's wearing a saddle that fits and you ride him right (from behind), it's def much better. Almost imperceptable now sans rider.

I saw what I think Sam called "ataxia" - when he's transitioning from a canter down to a trot/walk/stop his hind end looks like it sort of goes out from underneath him. (We haven't cantered him with a rider and have barely trotted him, so the observations are all at liberty.) I really haven't seen him do this in a long time. Even free longeing him wtc he seems a lot better.

Oh yeah, he is kept in an 8 ac. pasture 24/7 with about 6 other horses. He gets free longed in a grassy paddock. We take him walking on trails and through grass. When we walk him on the road, he still stumbles more than the other horses. It really seems to me like he's not paying attention to his feet (they are pretty far from his noggin, y'know and the tall grass on the roadside is *much* closer ) We ride him with a loose rein in a rope halter.

So this is a stupid question - is it possible that a horse can not know how to transition between gaits? If he's kept stalled, longed at a trot (apparently ad nauseum), and only cantered when "collected" by a rider? I've watched horses that just go round and round and round in an arena every time they're ridden, and they seem to drag their feet.

Please don't tell me to have a vet look at him. Our local vet (only one clinic in the County) is a jerk. When I had him check Raz out when he first got here, I couldn't even get him to look at Raz's teeth. I scheduled the farm call, but one of the other boarders had her new "reining prospect" that the vet was MUCH more interested in examining. I got 5 minutes, she got 30. Oooh, she paid $4500 for a 3 year old quarterhorse that she shipped all the way from Ohio! (Who turned out to be 14.1hh when she was told by the seller he "must be at least 15hh.") Do I sound bitter? I wish I had known he was a Trakehner so he could have gotten at least a little respect.

Oh, yeah, he's somewhere low teens based on teeth and was probably a jumper in his past life. Probably some dressage, but he either hadn't done it in a while or had a crappy rider because he def was ridden wrong. He's so heavy on the front end - his hind end is much more agile but he doesn't use it.

I guess whether he's stumbling because he's just phoning it in, is using his body wrong out of habit, or because he's got an old injury or weakness, it seems I should treat it the same (exercise), unless of course he starts regressing, right?

[Admin]

How does he move when he is out in the pasture with the other horses?

[beckybee]

It's the same in pasture on his own. Now that he's settled in to the herd he doesn't do as much running on his own, so I really only see him trot/canter unless I'm chasing him.

(I've done a heck of a lot more watching him in pasture than riding, that's for sure!)

[pnp4kidz]

More later... but think possible Insulin Resistance.
Many an older horse has subclinical, very mild (to you and I) laminitis, and that causes stumbling...
it is PAIN... mild, but pain.
think about diet...
hate to say that...

[cutiepiepmu]

Remind me again of what this kid is getting feed wise - all feed, supplements(brands) and amounts. When a horse has had issues with being starved or neglected - besides injuries there can be all kinds of issues with nerological damage or muscular damage. Sometimes, certain supplement programs can really help.

also - working with this kid in a flat area lunging slowly over poles and working up to low caveletti can sometimes help the horse be more aware of their body. Also, setting up low obsticals for him to step over can help too.

I have a very good friend who has a warmblood who ended up with EPM - it caused alot of issues in the hind end neruologically. BUT - she worked with him to develop muscle memory and over time he was beautiful under saddle and travelled so much better.

Has Your kid been tested to rule out EPM at all? Sometimes the signs can be REALLY subtle.

Sara

[pnp4kidz]

I know one quick way to check the foot for pain,
get a pair of boots, and comfort pads, and boot him up for his nice walk along the road...
see if that doesn't help.

oH, and try to get a good look while someone is walking him...
does he land heel first? (just slightly) or is it flat as the hoof contacts the ground? or even toe first (even slightly?)
you sometimes can tell more in dusty areas as they poof a bit of dust up when landing toe first... not at all when heel first.
the 'sore shoulder' might be 'sore foot'.
many hock and shoulder 'injuries' have turned out to be foot pain.

how is his hair? short, shiney? or longer? wavy? any 'curl' when wet?
I know he is lean, any fat pads by his tail or shoulders? how is his neck? cresty at all?
how about puffs over his eyes? sunken in or puffed out?
and lastly, does he pee a lot? drink a lot?

[piopico]

Sorry that you don't have good Vet access there. But I would second getting him tested for EPM. I have a horse have it for over 10 years........eventually had him put down because of it......but after he was diagnosed, I realized he'd had symptoms for YEARS that I hadn't recognised. Our outer-suburban parks here have telephone poles across the trails to prevent motorcyclists from using them, and for years, Pico had trouble stepping high over them. I hope it ISN'T that, but it's one thing to discount.

[beckybee]

He is on pasture - primary species are Anthoxanthum and Holcus (low quality, I know). They supplement am/pm with a 1/2 flake orchard grass mix from Klamath (<20% alfalfa).

I've been giving him an extra flake of the same hay a few times per week and/or take him out to hand graze on long grass for an hour or so.

He’s had a little alfalfa (on the order of handfuls) thrown in here and there and a couple cups of LMF Showtime to try to get some sand clear in him (which he will not eat unless heavily diluted). I’ve been meaning to start a joint supplement, but I’m a flake.

In the last couple weeks doing liberty work, he calmly sends (big deal for him!), he will walk or trot around a the perimeter 1/3 acre paddock totally relaxed, calm and forward until you ask him to stop or change directions, he smoothly pops up into a trot and canter. And then the occasional stumble, of course! He is not resistant at all so I have been ruling out pain.

He was on lush grass this spring, but I didn’t see any marked changes. His feet are great, no whiteline separation, no heat, no “founder stance” – can’t get off his front end!

He walks across gravel really well; walks over logs (will even leap on occasion – looks like a jumper to me!) He is heel first on all feet except the LF which you can see, hear and feel land flat – thump! He doesn’t have the head bob you see on a horse that’s gimping on a foot. With a good saddle and conscientious rider it’s no worse than riderless. Same foot, same thump for the past 7 months. Better when relaxed, slightly better overall lately (because he’s overall more relaxed?).

His doing a second shed to a shinier, sleeker coat – thus the recent discovery of his brand.

What is the test for EPM? For IR - what are we looking for in the blood test (blood test, right?)?

If he turns out to be IR and can't be on pasture I would have to make the decision of his quality of life in pasture vs. being on a dry lot (which in Humboldt County means being stalled). I don't want him to revert to the cribbing, anxious, and probably ulcer-riddled boy he was before he was in pasture.

I’ll try to get some video tonight – crap! I better head out!

[cutiepiepmu]

Not all IR horses have to be completely grass free - Usually just during the first full grass flush and the last grass flush in the fall. Cushings is a different though though - If the pastures are more dry and tall mature grass - I don't worry about that as much.

EPM testing is generally done using a Western Blot Test. There has been some question about whethe straight blood tests are best or if it is just better to test cereberal fluid. Talk to your vet about this - alot depends on what tests your vet can do in the area. Many vets have to send it out. Either way - Needle stick.

Here is a quick list of EPM type symptoms:
When horses are presenting with the known signs of EPM
Presenting clinical signs can be quite variable because they’re related to where lesions occur in the central nervous system. The most common clinical signs for EPM at presentation include asymmetric ataxia and focal muscle atrophy in the gluteal, or rump, area (most frequently). Other commonly observed clinical signs include:

Generalized muscular atrophy or loss of condition
Cranial nerve dysfunction
Weakness in the rear limbs, difficulty maintaining correct leads or subtle alterations in performance
Head shaking


With IR/Cushings - there are several ways to test - some better than others.

Oral glucose tests are a simple basic way to test for Insuline resistance. It won't give you TONS of numbers as far as results, but it will give you a quick bloodsugar response. It is a good way to do a basic test.

THe more common test are teh ACTH Stimulation Test and the Low dose dex supression test. Here is a link with some good basic info for you

www.harmonyequine.com/Insulin_Resistance_and_Cushings_syndrome_in_horses.stm

Hope this helps
Sara

[pnp4kidz]

Testing for IR is even easier than some of the practitioners make it,
you have a single blood draw, for glucose and insulin.
you then do a ratio of glucose to insulin. if it is 4.5 or less, you have IR, if it is 10 or less but over 4.5 you have compensated IR.
you can also do a complicated formula on the insulin score, that gives you more info..

then, as for 'founder', that is VERY different from laminitis!!!
founder is the extreme of laminitis...
think of this as the extremes of grandma's adult onset diabetes as compared to diabetic coma...
they are both in a diabetic... but one is just the mild end, and one is the bad extreme...

laminitis is simply the inflammation of the laminae, that can be mild, achie... ouchy on rocks... ouchy when walking on hard surfaces...
founder is when the laminae tear... completely losing a grip, and allowing the bone to tear away from the wall...

the good news is you have LOTS of room for improvement on the diet between full access to pasture of unknown sugar... to stall rest...
like, a grazing muzzle, and a smaller lot that you mow down and allow to go 'dry' and to dirt...
you can allow him some time on pasture, with a muzzle to slow him down,
then dry lot him at night for instance...
and many variations in between...

you should test first, and look for the how to manage him later...
we can help you thru that part... you will figure out how to manage him...
no matter what you find is his problem!
first is diagnosis!!!

[beckybee]

I always thought the IR horses were the "easy keeper" types - get fat just looking at grass. I've helped a few people diagnose their obvious fatty, cresty, greasy, "navicular" horses.

If he was IR/laminitic, wouldn't you see a swift decline when he was put on all-you-can-eat belly high green grass? I'm not arguing (okay, maybe I am ) but he just doesn't fit what I thought was the classic "type." Like you said quick blood test - I just have to tell them specifically what to test for, rather than giving them symptoms for them to diagnose.

I was tending toward a neurological diagnosis, but like Sara said above, you would expect asymetric atrophy. He also is pretty graceful and agile when it seems he's paying attention. When he's free longing, he mostly trots and canters head high (and I mean HIGH!), and he's a mess. If he lowers his head, his back rounds, he gets his back legs under him, the LF lands more smoothly and the tripping stops.

I got some pics of his feet and some video last night. I'll download and see if anything is helpful.

[shelberttk2]

Get a selenium test done as well, being low in selenium will cause stiffness, stumbling etc....

[beckybee]

Is there a "standard" blood panel that equine vets do, or do they have to test for each of these?

[stormlady]

Becky, the hind end stuff could also be a loose (unconditioned) stifle joint. Downward transitions are very difficult for a horse with weak quadriceps, which support the stifle joint. That can be corrected with careful, but simple conditioning exercises. There was an excellent article on this in Practical Horseman a couple years ago ("Stifles Strong", Practical Horseman, November 2005). Even if it is a neurological debilitation, a big ex-athlete like Raz who has been out of work probably is at risk of injuring now weak stifles, so this exercise regime would be helpful.

Good luck. I was attracted to Raz when he first came into the lot and then when I saw him at Sam's. He's a nice-looking horse.

[cutiepiepmu]

I have to say that with EPM - symptoms are not always equal on both sides. I had a percheron that as diagnosed EPM and his only real symptoms were that he was clumsy in his hind end on the left side - and when a full nerological exam was done, and the tail was pulled to his left while he trotted off - he nearly fell over - but on the right, he seemed to know where he was at.

IR is NOT always the easy keepers. Cushings horses tend to have more of the fat pads, but cushings doesnot always mean IR Just like with Diabetic type people - not all are obeese slobs Some are thin, fit and healthy people - some are average build, ect. Doing a quick blood test or the oral glucose test is a quick simple way to just rule it out.

But - I think testing for EPM is going to be important.

As for the tests - each test is an individual - they will just pull for antyhing being tested for at the same time.

Sara

[shelberttk2]

You have to request to have a Selenium test and a full endocrine panel etc.

[pnp4kidz]

The IR test is a glucose and an insulin.

[beckybee]

Gotta get the vet out for vacs, so I'll have them draw blood for some tests. I'll try to get the vet that is okay with "useless rescues."

We got Raz set up in his new Trekker saddle last night. He was feeling so good he readily trotted and he had to be asked to walk. I've never seen him so enthusiastic before. He really likes his new saddle (and brand new green saddle pad - I think you were right earlybp!). He is very resistant to backing with a rider.

I dunno, I think the more walks, liberty work and rides we're doing is already starting to work. I have to get some new pics. I did get a pic of his LF foot. He has had a lot of shedding sole and his feet are getting better every day. I'm just pulling off the dead sole as it lets go - not doing any carving.




The equine massage person will be out the 15th and Linda Cowles is coming up for a barefoot clinic on the 16th, so between the two of them I should get some more insight into his physical/anatomical issues.

[pnp4kidz]

wow, very flat foot with some quarter flare, but otherwise looks nice...
how did he do with stumbling?

[beckybee]

I think his hoof is filled with shedding/dead sole. Where the chunks come off - viola - concavity! That must be pretty uncomfortable walking with all that crap in there. Part of his problem maybe? It seems to be coming off pretty rapidly now and I don't want to carve with a knife because everytime a farrier does it to my horses they get REALLY gimpy!

Linda Cowles turned me on to this yahoo group: pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/barefoothorsecare/
They have instructions on how to take proper hoof pics, so I'll do some experimenting.

He stumbled once on a gopher hill (so he had an excuse , but really walked out nice overall. He wasn't thumping with that LF. At a trot, his head was moving around, but it was kind of all over the place. We couldn't consistently pin a head bob to one point in his pace. We didn't want to push him right then to figure it out.

I was hoping to get some pics and video tomorrow, but my trainer cancelled and I'm having no luck trying to take video myself. She'll be back out Tuesday. There is no place for him to walk/trot out with even footing so that just confuses things more. I'll see what we can do out on the road. Trotting a bit in the pavement shouldn't kill him.

[mkgbuegel]

Hmm, my take on it, is that its more in his body, ligaments, muscle & skeleton. I suspect your guy has been seriously out of whack for a long time before he came to you. It most likely began with a single incident/injury, that went unnoticed, unattended and untreated. The remainder of his body began to compensate for the initial injury, thereby causing pain and tightness thur out other parts of the body. In other words, hes healed from the original problem as best he could, but the original problem has caused ill effects thur out the rest of his body.

Looking at his picture, he looks to me like a great chiro and massage person would help make a huge difference in his overall body health, and ability to pick up his hooves. The resistance to backing under the weight of a rider is always a confirmation for me that , there is pain & or weakness going on, esp. in a well trained horse.

Lindas great, have fun at the clinic.

[beckybee]

Linda mentioned a friend who worked with rescues (and rescuers!) and I guessed it was you! I need to follow her around more - what I've learned in 2 days of stalking her around the internet is amazing.

She just mentioned on the barefoot horses board an online program that fits right into this thread: www.drkellon.com/

There are currently six courses:
NRC Plus
Nutrition As a Therapy
Nutrition for the Performance Horse
Cushings and Insulin Resistance
Understanding Bloodwork
Neuro and Muscular Disorders

Sounds like what I need to learn! Linda said Pete Ramey is currently taking the NRC Plus class and "says it's awesome." The courses are $210.

I attended a massage clinic with Beverly Gold a couple months ago and have been trying to apply some of what I learned, but I think he needs her Goldfingers to get him over the first big hump. Hopefully she will be able to locate areas of weakness, strain, tension and give me guidance on what to do. Before Bev moved to the sticks, she worked with dressage, hunter, etc. teams so has specific experience assessing and treating performance horses. She's fantastic about finding imbalances. It's cool - she starts at the horses eyes!

[shelberttk2]

You may also consider hocks...He may need injections?!

[mkgbuegel]

It is me. I may actually be coming with up with Linda the weekend of the clinic, my only version of a vacation. So maybe I'll get to meet you and your horses in person. Hope your guy feels better soon.

[redhorse]

I'm really looking forward to this clinic! It will be a pleasure to get to meet you.