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Post by pikzeedust on Aug 14, 2008 10:46:32 GMT -5
I have ALWAYS had my horses vaccinated twice a year. I am starting to notice a lot of people are not vaccinating anymore and their reasons stem from; horrible reactions, terrible for the kidneys and liver, not needed twice a year. I've pretty much been hearing it all and I'm really beginning to wonder.
I spoke with a person yesterday who does bodywork on horses and they were telling me that if West Nile is such a threat wouldn't we be vaccinating humans before horses? How many times do you get a vaccine for chicken pox? The answer is once. This person was telling me that the West Nile Vaccine is the worst and once its fed into your system there is no reason to have it yearly. The only one that they felt was necessary was tetnus and of course rabies if you live out in the country. Then again they said rabies does not need to be given once a year. I have heard this from many people now.
The other point I heard was Rhino shot. There hasn't been a case in 40 years (I was told) and the result of Rhino it can make a pregnant mare abort if contracted. Ok, so then why are we giving it yearly to geldings, stallions and mares that are not pregnant?
Anyway, all I can say is yes my horses have had some horrible reactions along with swelling and lameness. I was really worried about them because it has happened a few different times.
As any of my vets would say "these people are not qualified to make this determination it's strictly their opinion."
I would love to know your opinion........
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Post by Maverick~Zora on Aug 14, 2008 11:14:34 GMT -5
Yes I do!
However I do vaccinate all my horses for almost everything. I do this because I board my horses, the health & wellbeing of both my horses & the other horses at the ranch is very important to me.
I do NOT want to be the boarder that brings something back to the ranch because I did not vaccinate for it & in the end putting both my own horses & the other horses at risk.
FYI, I've never had any problems with any of the vaccines I've given.
One last thing & this is my call so to speak, I do not vaccinate for the same thing twice a year. Why, because I think it's overkill & stresses there system over the long haul, life I mean.
So whether it's right or wrong that's how I do it.
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Post by agilitygal on Aug 14, 2008 11:21:05 GMT -5
I did quite a bit of research about over vaccination in dogs. After age 10, I do not give my dogs any more shots. I give puppy shots and the yearly booster. After that, my dogs are titered. You'd be amazed at the immunity they have from those first shots. I blew my vet away when I titered for rabies as well. . .Sara still had high immunity level after 3 years. My younger dogs are titered for 2 years and then shots given if needed. . .on a 2 year schedule. Some vet clinics are recommending every 3 years and I think it was the University of Colorado now recommends every 7 years.
I don't know if horses are titered. . .but, it would be worth some research. I don't have horses now so I'm not faced with this dilemma. Not sure what I would do.
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Post by pnp4kidz on Aug 14, 2008 12:57:34 GMT -5
I don't give the old ones vaccines any more... I do the young ones yearly with tetanus and EW Enceph, not rhino unless preggers. I do rabies on the babies. but the old ones, well, nothing.... by old I mean over 25... or 30... (with the caveat that the ones who go to shows still get vacs... so the old ones who do NOT get it are the retired ones) the 40 year old pony got shots until this year... when he retired... sigh, he is back 'out' of retirement so I"ll have to decide...
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Post by kw on Aug 14, 2008 12:59:51 GMT -5
Yes, I do believe most horses are over-vaccinated. My TB Rock developed neuro symptoms a couple of years ago, and the blood tests came back positive for neuro rhino! This horse had not been off my property in years (retired) and no new horses had come onto the property in a long time. That fall when he had his regular shots, including Rhino, he collapsed. It was only because I had leftover steroids to administer from his previous attack that he didn't die. We determined that he developed some sort of immune system reaction to the rhino shot.
Now he no longer gets the rhino shot, and I've cut back to once a year for West Nile, tetanus, and Eastern/Western. The younger ones still get the rhino shot, but as they get older, I will likely quit that one for them since they're all backyard horses.
Also, my mom & stepdad had a 15 year old Cairn terrier who was incredibly healthy. She had her yearly vaccinations, reacted and died within weeks.
My indoor cat no longer gets any vaccinations, and my older dogs have been reduced to every other year.
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Post by pikzeedust on Aug 14, 2008 13:47:36 GMT -5
Thanks girls this really helps
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Post by icehorse on Aug 14, 2008 14:50:30 GMT -5
I do mine once a year in the spring and try not to give too many at one time(especially the young ones). Made my filly get pnuemonia when she got a huge dose of shots. Mine live near the river so they get west nile, but not the preggers, I've seen research that it causes miscarriages. My equine massage therapist told me that west nile is not as necessary as they make it out to be. We hardly go anywhere, so I try to give the least amount necessary.
When I worked for a chiropractor, he was against giving humans vaccines. Did you know the MMR causes rhuematoid arthritis-my husband got it when he was 16, right after he got that shot. There are studies on that as well.
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Post by Tate on Aug 14, 2008 15:04:36 GMT -5
I have the horses vaccinated with 4 way once a year, and new rescues first year gets WNV, then I dont do WNV anymore. I still dont trust it. My older cats and dogs only get rabies every 3 years, I was told years ago by my vet that once they are in midlife they have enough immunity for the rest. I've also reduced the worming on the horses to once every 3 months.
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Post by wendyp on Aug 14, 2008 16:09:47 GMT -5
Great Topic! I don't vaccinate dogs or horses unless absolutely necessary - if I have to get a health cert on a horse, or if a dog is going to be traveling and I have to prove rabies. Otherwise, mine don't get anything. BTW, Tetanus is a bacteria, so totally different than vaccinating for a disease.
I sincerely believe that we overvaccinate all of our animals because the vets scare us into believing that if we don't, our animals will die and/or we will cause an epidemic. Well, I say that if my animals aren't vaccinated and yours are, then you shouldn't be worried about catching anything if the vaccinations are working, right? The thing is, everytime we vaccinate a horse or dog or a cat, we are bypassing the animals 'natural' way of dealing with disease - they would normally contract it via mouth, nasal, etc, which gives the immune system time to enable it's early warning system and start the troops into action to start building antibodies. When we vaccinate, and inject the disease (killed or modified live) directly into the blood stream, we are bypassing the early warning system. This chinks away at the immune system. More is not better when it comes to challenging the immune sysytem - it breaks it down, it doesn't build it up - thus there are so many auto-immune problems in domestic animals IMHO.
I quit vaccinating my dogs about 15 years or more ago........I have newfoundlands who are not known for living much beyond 8 years - mine have lived to 13yo, and the two I have now are 9 and 11, and act much much younger. Raw diet helps too, but we won't go there!
My old mare had a bad reaction to vaccines 12 years ago, and I haven't vaccinated any of my horses much since - she lived to be 36years old. I think there is a risk/benefit factor to consider, and if the sideaffects are severe, then the risk outweighs the benefit in my opinion. When our daughter was in 4H - Her leaders were appalled that I wasn't vaccinating every 60 days for Rhino -well, hell , if doesn't last any longer than 60 days, why bother? Our horses never got sick, and her 4H horse is 25yo and healthy as the proverbial horse! I will take my chances with the disease, 'cause I *know* what problems the vaccinations can cause!
This may not be the most popular course of action, but it's the one that seems to work the best for my animals. We all have to do what we 'feel' is right for ourselves and our animals. I am not condemning anyone for vaccinating, it's totally a personal choice. My vet does not necessarily agree with *no* vaccinations, although he doesn't push any of them on me. I have no problem 'discussing' things like the raw diet for the dogs, and no vaccinations, with my vets - and we can agree to disagree. I don't have to vaccinate just because they think I should. I pay them for their opinion, but I am free to take it or leave it. I'm nice about it, but firm. I think alot of people are afraid to go against their vets opinion, and that's okay if you agree with them, but if your gut is telling you something else, you should find out more info (like pikzeedust is doing) and then make an informed choice and stick with it. And remember that vets make a heck of alot of money off that annual 'vaccination' visit. I truly feel that most vets think the vaccinations won't hurt the animal, even if they are done often. Well that's true for alot of animals, but it sucks for the ones that don't survive due to overvaccination or severe reactions.
Just my two cents.......................
WendyP/Bend, OR
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Post by wendyp on Aug 14, 2008 16:13:54 GMT -5
I only worm mine every three months ....always have. WendyP/Bend, OR
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Post by pikzeedust on Aug 14, 2008 16:35:51 GMT -5
Ok well here's the true test....... I have owned one of my horses for 4 years now. When I purchased him I noticed he had small round scabs on the inside of his ears. They are actually more like scars. So of course I asked the vet what it was and then I continued to ask 3 other vets. They all said it was a fever that is common in the South that horses can get and that is the result of it. It leaves scarring on their ears. OK so I went with that. They aren't really noticable because I leave the hair on the inside of his ears. No big deal.
When I took my horse to the chiropractor yesterday he said that the scars on his ears were a fungus and it was caused from an overload of vaccines, sedatives, etc. He said that if I were to stop the vaccines, put him on this stuff called Silver Lining, kidney flush, liver flush and immune booster, that those scars and/or fungus in his ears would disappear. He said his immune system is so overloaded that it comes out that way and its also comes out in bruising on his feet.
Well here's where the story get kind of strange. I was told a year ago by my vet that he was pre-navicular. So of course the vet injected him and it did NOTHING. He was still off. I didn't believe that what the problem is! However I did put pads on his feet and he is a thousand times better. I went as far a sending the disk over to Oakdale which is where Dr. Black is and they also said they didn't think that it was navicular either because to them it just looked like shadowing on the x-rays where the navicular bone is.
The chiropractor said once I flush his system then the bruising will stop in his feet and the pads can come off. He said the reason why the pads made a difference is because I was basically padding the bruises.
SOOOOOOOO, we will just have to see the outcome of all of this.
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Post by pikzeedust on Aug 14, 2008 16:38:03 GMT -5
Wendy P that's basically everything I was told too. That rabies vaccines in dogs actually last nine years but of course the vets would be out of business if people knew this was all true. It's very sad.
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Post by shelberttk2 on Aug 14, 2008 18:28:00 GMT -5
When I worked at the clinic, the Doctor's recommended each as an individual to look at their horses environments/lifestyles--then vaccinate accordingly. One of the biggest problems I saw with the horse community, is they don't know what they are vaccinating with or what it's for....they just do it because "so and so does it"...... We are pretty quarantined here, so I only vaccinate the ones we take out on the road to barrel events etc. Our old guys get the basics, Tetanus and WNV. Next year I am only going to do Tetanus on everybody over 20. I think it's important to do Flu/ Rhino if you are in a stable environment as well as Strangles. F/R every 6 months if it is a high traffic barn with lots of shows, horses going in and out to shows etc. I don't vaccinate for PHF or Rabies, never have, probably never will. It's not really necessary here. I worm my personal horses every 2 months, and the old farts are on the daily worming due to them showing a resistance to encysted strongyles. I think that worming too, is something a lot of owners have no clue about. Many clients at the clinic would rely on 'reminders' being sent out, and we were to look up what they had used last and what was due etc. They don't get the whole picture, we worm with certain products at certain times of the year because that is what is most likely in the environment at that time. Our mustang herd gets wormed every 4 months, they are in a HUGE field that had never been grazed on before by horses etc. and have always had NEGATIVE fecals. I do worm for Tapes twice a year here, though I know in other regions Tapes are more prominent. I just use the combo 'Equimax'. Sorry, I am not trying to hijack this thread!!! I completely agree though, animals are vaccinated way to much!! I believe most of it is from lack of knowledge....This has been my experience anyway!! People would come in to get vaccines because the clinic had sent them a reminder....I would always ask them, do you still need to vaccinate for F/R every 6 months? Are you still doing Circuit shows and in a big barn?......A lot of times the answer was NO!
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Post by shelberttk2 on Aug 14, 2008 18:33:12 GMT -5
Once an animal has received a vaccine, it must be boosted in 3-4 months to raise Titer levels. In our area, we only do WNV annually after the initial vaccine has been given. This raises Titer levels during peak season. We actually did have Rhino reported out of a big show barn last Spring. There were several cases reported, to which we cautioned people to use the MLV Rhino to protect their animals. Rhino is still around.
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Post by shelberttk2 on Aug 14, 2008 18:46:51 GMT -5
Is the stuff in the horses ear bumpy white junk? Plaque type stuff, that can be (GROSS-I hate doing this) scraped out with your finger nail?? If so, that is plaque caused by flies.....Scrape, put cortisone cream one and then keep ears covered....Voila! It will go away (If it's the nasty stuff I am thinking of--ack! gag!)
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Post by lorsadoon on Aug 14, 2008 20:15:27 GMT -5
Yes, I think horses are over vaccinated. I think our children are too. Right now my doctor wants to vaccinate my daughter with the new vaccine which prevents cervical cancer. I said no, not yet. It has not been out long enough to know if there are bad side effects. And just yesterday it was on the news about all the bad side effects that are being reported with the new vaccine.
I agree about the stuff in the ears being caused by flies. They bite horses ears. Put vaseline on the tips to keep the flies from sucking on the tips.
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Post by pikzeedust on Aug 14, 2008 21:35:14 GMT -5
Is the stuff in the horses ear bumpy white junk? Plaque type stuff, that can be (GROSS-I hate doing this) scraped out with your finger nail?? If so, that is plaque caused by flies.....Scrape, put cortisone cream one and then keep ears covered....Voila! It will go away (If it's the nasty stuff I am thinking of--ack! gag!) No they just look like little round gray dry scar tissue. There are probably 10 in each ear. Maybe the size of a pea but flat.
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Post by lorsadoon on Aug 15, 2008 9:17:09 GMT -5
Could she have these. This came from www.thehorse.comIt is a very good website. This article is four years old, so there may be new treatments since then. Ear Papillomas Ear papillomas (aural plaques) are typically roundish, raised, depigmented (white) lesions on the inside surface of the ears. The condition usually occurs in horses over one year of age. In addition to the ears, the anus and external genitalia can also be affected. The plaques can be limited to just a few and remain static for some time, or the condition can progress to involve the entire inner surface of the ear. The ear plaques do not spontaneously regress as the facial warts do. The flat, smooth lesions develop a waxy coating that can appear flaky, which can be misleading when making a diagnosis. The condition has often been referred to as "ear fungus," but there is no fungal infection. Another mistaken cause is an allergic reaction or infection related to black fly bites. It is true that the black fly (as well as other insects) contribute to the condition by causing the predisposing skin damage that allows viral invasion, and the black fly also plays a role in transmitting the virus from horse to horse. Most of the time, the ear plaques are only cosmetic problems. Occasionally some horses will develop violent head shyness related to the aural plaques, especially during the summer months when the plaques could be aggravated by fly bites. Therefore, fly protection is important. Face masks and screens with ear coverage can work well if they are properly fitted. With respect to any of the fly repellents, I prefer they not be applied directly to any of the lesions to avoid irritation. Treatment There is no documented treatment for aural plaques. There are anecdotal reports on a variety of topical preparations, but there are no controlled studies confirming effectiveness. The product tretinoin (Retin-A) has been reported to effectively treat this condition, but in my experience it has not been effective. In all but a few cases, my typical recommendation, aside from keeping the inside surface of the ear clean and providing fly protection, is to leave the lesions completely alone. In a few severe cases where the lesions had coalesced into a rather large mass and the horse had become severely head shy and painful, I have successfully removed some of the lesions with cryosurgery (freezing with liquid nitrogen). The big risk/complication with using freeze therapy in this area is causing damage to the thin cartilage within the ear, which can cause disfigurement as the ear heals and scar tissue forms. One last concern is to make sure you are not dealing with a sarcoid, as there are different concerns and treatment options for these (more on these shortly). Typically the aural plaques remain well-demarcated, smooth, flat, and white. If there is rapid growth with an irregular surface, pain, and/or non-white discoloration, further evaluation is necessary, and a sarcoid should be ruled out.
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Post by pikzeedust on Aug 15, 2008 10:17:50 GMT -5
Thank you for that information.
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Post by beckybee on Aug 15, 2008 10:56:36 GMT -5
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Post by pikzeedust on Aug 15, 2008 16:38:48 GMT -5
Sometimes they get a little dry and I just put like vitamin E oil or something jus to moisten them so they don't itch. He really doesn't pay much attention to them. I'll try and take a picture of his ears. I just don't know how to post them on here.
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