Jet xrays

[pnp4kidz]

Had the vet out to get xrays of Mai Tai, and of Sally, another rescue horse... .
so, since Jet has abcessed so badly for so long, thought I'd better get a shot of her front...
and here they are....
and I'm so bummed.
she is sound... and relatively happy... at least "I" thought so...

[pnp4kidz]

I got cut off during my post by my kids wanting dinner... the NERVE...
:-)
so, the vet says Jet has severe pedal osteitis, with some fractures and bone fragments just hanging there,
and the abcessing is coming from the degenerating bone.
there is no hope to stop the abcessing without doing a resection, bone curretage to scrape out the infection, then high dose antibiotics long term... and even then, even a young, relatively healthy horse has a guarded chance.
Jet is probably pushing 30, and has severe cushing's.
probably due to the immunity problems coming from that and chronic low grade laminitis, she got this...
she is however sound. for all intents and purposes...

of course the vet said it was time...
and I just don' t know!
perhaps she is just so stoic...
the abcessing must be horrific... but she NEVER shows lameness.... even this last trim, when her entire sole blew off.... tender underneath of course, but walks, trots, canters sound.

what do I do???

[TashGaia]

Can she be kept comfortable?

[pnp4kidz]

well, Tash, here is the thing.
she appears comfy to me right now!
she cantered up the hill bucking yesterday afternoon, and last week when I put them out in the arena she bucked and farted for at least 10 minutes to beat the band.
she naps like any old lady, but she doesn't lay down to get off her feet.
she doesn't point one foot, or lean on one, or anything I can see.
She walks out with a long stride, no head bob, and an awesome heel first landing...
sheesh...
from what 'I' see, she is one happy chicko with a huge hole in the bottom of her foot that I pack with Numotazine and cotton, then boot her in an easy boot cause she is houdini with all other boots!

[gsdmom]

If she is comfortable and eating and moving around then I think she is telling you that it is not time. The vet doesn't live with her, you do. She'll let you know when she is ready.

Kathy

[pnp4kidz]

Thank you,
I will go with my heart, and let her tell me when it is her time.
I'm always hoping to just find the oldsters out there having died in their sleep ya know...
but hasn't happened yet...
but you are right. She sure isn't saying she is 'done' yet!

[cutiepiepmu]

This is a hard decision to make - BUT, I am going to say that - when your kid is ready, he will let you know. The spark will be gone out of the eyes, more depression...... you will know. If you have questions - go with your gut.

As far as keeping the feet comfortable I can help. Packing the feet deeply can certainly make him alot more comfortable and help limit the amount of percusion bruising and bone issues. There is a particular way to do this and it involves some creativity! I am going to suggest going to walmart - buy one of the memory foam pillows. Get the contour ones that have the sides that are around 4-6 inches thick. Get teh cheaper memory foam for goodness sake!!!! While at walmart go ahead and buy a few BIG rolls of the surgical cotton batting. OR go to the craft isle and get a couple of big roles of the thick cotton batting.

You will also need to get many rolls of vet wrap that sticks to itself, a big roll of duct tape OR buy boots - but the duct tape will allow for more padding.

So - here is how this goes - Cut the memory foam to fit so that it is about 1/4 inch larger all the way around the foot. Cut several pieces out of the pillow - at least 4 as you will need 2 for each foot THEN - this is how it will go

Wash the foot with an antibacterial wash - I really like DAWN dishwashing liquid. Gets the dirt and crud out Use a stiff brush to scrub.

THEN, dry the foot well with some old towls. Place the first piece of memory foam into the foot and press well into the gaps and groves between the frog. Use a partial role of vet wrap to wrap around the bottom firmly. Make sure the entire bottom and toe are covered well. THEN, take the second piece of memory foam and place it against the bottom of the foot. on top of that place around 1 -2 inches of teh cotton batting that is folded up to be just slightly larger than the memory foam. Try to get the folds even so that the foot doesn't roll when your kid walks. THEN, use more vet wrap and wrap the entire thing together and wrap all teh way up the hoof and just up to the pasturn to protect it from the tape. Wrap it fairly snug around the bottom of he foot so that the padding doesn't shift. THEN, take the duct tape and rip off strips that are around 10-12 inches long. Stick them lightly to a wall and overlap each strip. do around 5-6 going verticle - then do around 5-6 going horizontal over the top of the vertical ones to form a "+" sign. THEN, put the bandage on the bottom of the foot so that it is like an X with the open part to the front part of the toe. Then, wrap the tails around the hoof so that they criss cross. Use more duct tape over the top part to secure the other dressing. and presto-chango - youhave a boot that is similar to an absess dressing, BUT should really pad the foot well and help relieve some of the percusion. Do this with both front feet. Generally you can let the kid wear them till they wear off or up to 5 days.

there are other things you can do to help with pain. If you can stall this guy on the days that you pull the padding pack off, then soak an animalintex poultice with liquid DMSO and put it on the foot and wrap well with vet wrap to protect the foot and keep the kid from touching his ilttle nose to his foot and getting dmso on it.

This should help relive any pain that is in the foot. you can also crush a half of a bute tab adn put into each foot after mixng with the dmso - it will take it direclty into the foot and works BEAUTIFULLY!!!

No, this is not a standard thing I recommend. BUT, IMO when you have a kdi of this age, with these kinds of problems - you do drastic and some times off the wall things to provide them quality of life, comfort and relieve pain as much as possible. As long as your kid still has quality of life, has vigor to eat, seems happy, wants to interact with the other horses - he is still wanting to be here Y"ou will know when the time is right.

If you need other help let me know - I am sort of dealing with this with my old man right now - although not with the feet, but wth a horribly arthritic knee that has massive calcified changes causing the leg to now be starting to disfigure. I know that it is borrowed time, but as long as he wants to be here, I will do whatever I can to make him happy and comfortable

Take care,
Sara

[cutiepiepmu]

Also - even if your kid seems comfortable, I woudl go ahead and pack the feet to limit the inner bruising which should also limit the absessing AND - is it possible that she has been nerved?

Sara

[pnp4kidz]

nerved.... OMG, I had not thought of that...
anything is possible, she was a CBER horse...
Jet.
might explain why she is so super comfy...

I keep her packed right now with Numotazine poultice and cotton batting, then an easy boot on her with a comfort pad in there,
she is houdini with any other boot or foot wrap I swear!
this one she can't get off...
to her chagrin.

thanks for the thoughts Sara, I will try padding it more to limit concussion... and the memory foam sounds like the ticket!

[frr2]

Interesting question on being nerved... we don't know. Jet was a CBER group rescue a few years ago, looked like a buffalo when she was there due to her advanced Cushings. She's been very highly trained at some point in her life; does dressage patterns on turnout

Sad to see the Xrays,, but I don't think either Beth or I were totally taken by surprise. She's had foot problems since we've had her. Just didn't know it was so advanced.

Peg

[cutiepiepmu]

ya, if this kid is acting super comfy without bute, espeically with this kind of damage - I am figuring that the she is nerved.... an ultrasound of the leg/pasturn/ankle MIGHT be able to tell, but it is sort of ify....

The memory foam is GREAT - really protects the foot and you can colapse it into the foot with a single piece then use the other foam to really pack around. The pillows will do around 8 pieces generally pretty easily and are around $20ish - at least at our walmart.

Sara

[tireddog]

Beth, I am so sorry. What a shock - and yet not. This mare's constitution is amazing.

My answer-finding approach is always if my answer is "maybe" or "I don't know" or "I don't really think so" or "Well, kind of" then the answer is "No." You will know the answer is yes when Jet is ready. There will be no doubt - and no regrets. And she may be behaving and carrying on when she is ready to go exactly as she is right now. But you will know. And she will tell you.

Have you read "Chosen by a Horse?" I will mail it to you if you have not.

to you, your girls, your sis, and all your critters

[calypso]

I'm heading out to FRR tomorrow and will bring Chosen by a Horse with me. :-)

[agilitygal]

I agree with the others. She will let you know when she gives up. She sure doesn't behave like a horse with severe foot problems. My goodness, she feels good enough to run, buck, and fart around. Horses don't do that if they aren't feeling good. . .well, what would be good in her case. She still enjoys life!

I think what we all have to learn is how to deal with our concept of what they should feel. That has been reallllllllly hard for me all these years. Each one is so different. My perception of what most likely is. . .and. . .what really is. . .are often different.

Don't know anything about nerving other than the comments here. If that be the case, then why wouldn't it be OK to let her be. . .until something else happens to her that takes her down.

I think you are the most amazing owner. I've learned so much from you and those animals that find themselves in your care. Cutiepie is a walking encyclopedia and I always search for her comments and replies. I don't own horses, but still have an intense interest and wish I could have them.

I have been following Jet's thread from the beginning. I think she now feels better than she ever did. I think she's one happy horse.

[pnp4kidz]

I've had an amazing conversation via email with my friend and vet extroirdenaire Dr Kellon today, she also didn't think of the 'nerving' but did an 'ah ha!'...
and she gave me some advice for what to just keep that foot packed with to absorb the fluid coming from the abcesses.... and we will just move on!
Jet is a huge love, and we will let her tell us when the time has come...
:-)
thank you all for wonderful perspective...
and awesome information....
it takes a village!

[cutiepiepmu]

Dr. Kellon is awesome Good person to have on your team for sure!

The reality is - if i had a horse in this situation i would not intentionally Nerve her. I can't imagine any responsible owners doing so - BUT if she is already nerved and is not feeling the severity of her issue - and you are careful to make sure her feet are looked after - if she is comfortable, happy, and otherwise has quality of life - there is no reason to put her down until it becomes obvious that her condition is going to prevent her from having a good life.

take care,
Sara

[frr2]

We just have the hardest time letting go And that's why we have so many old beat up horses. The vet looks at us and says... "so why do you have that horse with the huge knee???" (that would be Taffy!) We do watch when our horses are ready to go, and help them when its time. But Jet is a tough call. Even with our extra care and lots of padding, I have a feeling she won't wait long to let us know.

[shelberttk2]

What about air boots? I have seen them do amazing things for some REALLY BAD founder horses...maybe they would help your kid?

[penny/pals]

I hate to be the devils advocate but if she has been nerved if she does real damage to the foot she will not feel it. It's like a dog that has a paralized leg that it drags, the leg keeps getting damaged but the dog does not feel it. Eventually the leg has to be amputated because of the damage. Now I know you have been working on her foot and she seems comfy but I have a tendency to see things in black and white is there any possibility this will improve?? How bad can she damage herself if she is nerved without feeling it??? Is it possible her bone could drop through her sole and she would not know it. I am not trying to upset anyone, these are just questions that I would ask of my vet.

[pnp4kidz]

I can answer some of them Penny,
she has been abcessing since we got her, going on three years ago.
we have gone around and around, and we'd have some months of no abcesses, then plewie, huge one, and for many trim cycles we fight it... then clear it, then blowie... another...
So, I this year went down the potential 'causes' for abcessing that won't quit...
the biggie is an infection in the bone.
the way to see if the bone is ok is xrays.

So... the answer is this... her bone is already totally chewed up, broken in many places and much of it is already missing.
There is nothing worse she can 'do' to it, it is already disintegrating.
Most horses would not get NEARLY this bad without being on the ground, unable to stand.
and Jet is comfy, and sound.

You bet she can hurt herself worse...
but the truth is she could have for all the time we've had her.
nothing has CHANGED now, just that we know.

When she tells us her quality of life is no longer there, or she is done fighting this, we will let her go gracefully and with dignity.. that is our oath to all of the oldsters we have.
We have promised not to make any attempt to 'prove' we can keep one alive... that is not the point.... it is only 'good' if they are still happy.
We see her every single night... to give her her pergolide.
Our ranch hand sees her twice a day to feed her.
we have lots of hands on, and we talk to them.
She will tell us.

'If' she is nerved, it happened sometime way before us...
and if she isn't nerved... well, then God has spared her the pain her xrays tell us she should be feeling.
Mine is not to always know 'why'....
when it is working, don't ask too many questions.... I guess.
in this case, the lack of pain means she can enjoy life longer....
if she wants to.

this is what she looked like on New Year's Eve...

just a few days later we found this: just lurking under her bar.... and it got bigger and bigger as he tried to find the 'edge'...

and after following it more... and more...
it was this! (this is after we soaked it in Clean Trax for an hour)


I can't explain 'why' she looks so perky and yet has this hole brewing in her foot...

[lorsadoon]

Yes, it is very hard to let go sometimes. But when we hold on, we are only thinking of ourselves.

If she has been nerved, she is feeling no pain. If she is not feeling any pain, she is going to look perky. Her bone could come through her foot and she would not feel it.

[pnp4kidz]

The bone is not in danger of coming 'thru the sole'.
she is not foundered nor foundering.
she is abcessing the nasty fluid formed from the bone decintegrating in there from inflammation from her cushing's.
this has been going on for years...

I am not going to let her rot her feet off folks...
She gets farrier visits every 5 to 6 weeks, that foot is booted when it abcesses, and they are generally small collections with a small hole allowing fluid out...
this one was amazingly big, probably cause her sole was in great shape and the fluid didn't find an easy way out. so it built up.

If the bone degeneration gets to the point of not allowing her to run and buck up and down the hill.... we will let her pass....
she will feel unsteadyness if the bone falls apart... even if there is no pain.

[tireddog]

I know the hooves present a completely different scenario than the face, but the same abscessing process was occurring when Lady Officer Florence (blind sorrel mare from CBER) arrived at Tired Dog Ranch. No, there was no way she was going to be put down after winning that fight! A body "abscesses" in order to remove a foreign body from the body. Broken bone is no longer seen as belonging in the body and effective to the host. When Heidi found that FLO (not to be confused with Flo) had loaded a blind mare and demanded she be removed from the slaughter truck (already weighed, tagged, and loaded), she had to be "scared" off the truck. She ran head on into a pole, Heidi believes. Her cheekbone was broken in the process, and her body tried to rid itself of the bone (abscess). A long-term treatment with systemic antibiotics as well as topical bovine mastitis cream (yep, cow tit cream) expressed into that "hole" helped clear the abscess and subsequent infection. Amazingly, this is not what ended Flo's days here; it was losing her seeing-eye horse. I promised her she would never be alone and that I would not leave her sightless. She never bonded with anyone like she did with Ambrosia, and I could not risk injury or loneliness. I still miss her desperately, but knew she was ready when Lady Ambrosia was ready. They had an agreement.

Jet will jet around until she cannot/will not. I am learning that these rescued horses are not on borrowed time because we saved them, but rather deserve all that life has to give because they were robbed. We cannot rob them again. Life is precious. I trust 100% that Beth would not put any creature - two-legged, four-legged, winged, or finned - in any position to suffer. Jet will not suffer.

[beckybee]

Jan 24, 2009 19:08:04 GMT -5 tireddog said:

I trust 100% that Beth would not put any creature in any position to suffer.

Hear hear!