pecking order question

[wildwoman]

When I had my 4 there was a definate pecking order-they were all together in a 4 acre pasture and everything worked out. George was #2 and Joe #4 although #1 kept #2 &3 in line-he also kept them from picking on Joe-who was approx 18 months when he came to us (now 4)
Now we have George, Joe, hubby's 2 mares and Hilary. George still ranks over Joe, BUT the mares outrank George, Joe runs the mares all over and is getting more aggressive-yesterday I moved him in with Kris and Lex and today I see 2 bite marks on Lex-hair missing, scraped. She is 30 years old-she doesn't need to be run all over by some punk kid. He did the same thing to Hilary when I put her in with the boys. I know for a fact that Kris wants to attack Hil-she took out a section of field fence trying to get at her.
Joe obviously isn't low man on totem pole any more-BUT he's turning into a butthole toward them. Hilary is the biggest horse here, but ranks least, and Lex just wants to hang out and enjoy retirment, Kris thinks it's her job as alpha mare to be in charge of everything.
CAN'T THEY ALL JUST GET ALONG??!!
I would like to rotate pastures,put them all together in the larger pasture and let the smaller ones grow etc, but need to keep the folks seperated-would prefer if they could work things out amongst themselves, but don't want anyone to get hurt or constantly pushed off their feed.
So now Hil is by herself, next to George and Lex and Joe and Kris are together.
Maybe I am venting? Maybe I am asking for advice/perspective? Ideas?
Thanks,
Lisa

[luvmypaints]

Oh Lisa they are like school yard bullies sometimes, lol! our old gelding thinks he's the herd "stud" and runs his mares around whenever he can, until our lead mare puts him in his place! they are so funny to watch 'cause they're like an old married couple! They'll work it out and thats just the way it will be, but for the sake of your old gal I'd keep her out of the mix so she can have some peace, maybe put one of the friendlier horses with her so she's not alone.

[swissgrl]

I think I need a super alpha mare...... I got a pasture full of testosterone!!!!! For the most part they get along, but boy once they get a hair up their butt....

[wildwoman]

There IS a SUPER EVIL Alpha mare QUEEN BEEEEOTCH-and I SWEAR to God yesterday when I put Joe in with her she INSTANTLY went into heat-what is WITH that?? (I KNOW he is gelded-I got handed the evidence)
Hilary came here in October healing up from a track injury-so she needed quiet, alone time. After a couple months I put the boys next to her (on south side) -Joe was IN LUV LUV LOOOOVEEEE-it was SO CUTE-they trotted up and down the fenceline exactly in step-then some loping-back and forth making googley eyes at each other. While they were doing that-I put Kris in with Lex who was on the north side of Hil so I could fix the gate Kris had broke the week before when I had Joe out saddled up and was working with him in the barnyard. Hil never noticed Kris was there-but Kris charged at Hil and got wrapped up in the field fence like a sausage in a blanket. Needless to say-gate stayed jimmyrigged a bit longer Kris and Lex got moved back across the way, Joe kept Hil entertained while I fixed the other fence and eventually Hil got moved into the bigger pasture with the boys-feeding time was OK but for fun and entertainment other times Joe started herding Hil all over-at first I thought-cool-she won't be so bored and beavering up the fence and she will get some exercise and enjoy being part of the herd.
THEN I started seeing bite marks on her-poor thing-are TB's normally low on totem pole? Will this drama ever calm down?
I have this HOPE-this DREAM this FANTASY that SOMEDAY my days off will include something OTHER than hauling hay, hauling feed, cleaning stalls or fixing fence-something like actually RIDING!!! (I think I remember what that was like) Call me wacky-but I would like to be able to take horses somewhere and not have them kill each other if we go camping or to the beach or whatever. Oh yeah-Hil showed Joe how to chew on fence-nice new fence. mmmmm niiiiccceeee.
Thus continues the soap opera that is my life "As The Turd Whirls"

[Maverick~Zora]

Like you, my gelding Bee just stands there & all the mares both young & old & mean old, line up just to get a wiff of him. He'll look at me as if to say, WTF? He likes it for about 2 seconds, then he's get sick of it.

Your comment on riding is funny, I'm in the same boat. I remember riding too, I think I liked it!

[cutiepiepmu]

In my experience - mixed herds take more time to work out than mare adn gelding herds. BUT - if you can keep the ratio 2 mares to 1 gelding - and make sure that at least one mare is mega alfa- it will settle quickly...

BUT - since most of us don't have the ability to plan that out lol - I generally find that 2 horse groups work good - and in some cases more, but a 2some generally works well

My little herd works well - My 28 year old QH stallion(mare at heart!) is still the big man around here even though he is lame and slow - he gives the others the look and that is all it takes. Kadin is second in line - but, he was raised with LB my old guy, so that was established from the time Kadin was a baby - and, poor malibu - well, she is low man on the totem. But, eventually - she has enough from Kadin and plants her back feet somewhere tender lol. That slows Kadins constant flogging up some! But - seperate them from eachother - and they pine away like you are killing them lol.

I think it is a matter of knowing the personality of yoru horses and really watching them. It generally works out in time - but if a horse is gettign REALLY beat up - you have to step in. If the horse is standing up for herself, but getting a little beat up int eh process - might want tot consider a good thick blanket - like one of the canvas ones - to help take some of the brunt!

Sara

[wildwoman]

To be honest with you-I am more of a "gelding person" myself.
I don't want Hilary to have to be alone her whole life, or bored and back to chewing on whatever she can get her teeth on. George and Hil in together are OK -BUTwhen-like now they are in adjoining paddocks/stalls he threatens her at feeding time (stalls divided by 4 1/2 ft wall) but when in pasture together no problem. When I had George, Joe and Hil together-I got concerned Hil never stood up for herself-and she is SO MUCH BIGGER than Joe. DOESN'T she KNOW who she IS?? COME on-look at her papers!? Look at her background!!(she couldda been a contendah')-and she is gonna let some rough and tumble 'bastard range baby' bully her around?
The girls are in love with Joe and this is doing his ego NO FAVORS-HE is in love with himself too. Let's see if he goes back to longing Krissie. She likes to stand in the front corner by the barnyard and he was back about 25 feet-kept her moving-she would circle around and try and come back up to her spot-then Joe would make ears at her and nod his head and she would loop around again-WISHED TO GOD I had a video camera-this went on for quite some time.
I Love Joe-he IS really cool AND SO HELPFUL!!!!! Why.... Just yesterday hubby called to say he was on his way to pick me up -my car was in the shop and he had a small window of time to get me-and I look out the window and see where Joe has been so nice as to point out where a fence board needed to be replaced! I look down-see
1)I am not dressed for work yet and run to the garage where
2)all 4 drills have dead batteries and the 2 electric ones don't have bits and can't find the decent hammer or the right nails-took a dinky hammer and some nails with no heads and got a board across so the top rail being off wouldn't look like an invitation.

I think before I try them as a whole herd-I will wait till the snow is gone and ground doesn't have any slippery spots-I am sure they would run around like a bunch of maniacs. Too bad they don't make football pads for horses-put that on Hil and let em work it all out.

[luvmyarabs]

Oh Lisa , Lisa, Lisa...you should give Jamie a call one day ..We fully understand. Baby , believe it or not will be 4 in June and keep's the tractor taken care of every time he get's a chance.
We have a 40 yr old Appy, Mist and we just added a pony to the mix, so there are 5 out in the field together.
We did have to add more eating area, and we bring the old girl in morning and night for her special mushies ..
Thing's will settle down for you ... I'm sure you 're feeling like it won't , but usually they work things out..
And ..riding ? When does that happen ...
Bette

[wildwoman]

HEY BETTE!
My cel phone crashed and I lost everybody's numbers.
You should bring Baby to the Steve Rother Clinic in Buckley in March! Pix? I bet he is huge! What did you finally end up naming him?
Lisa

[luvmyarabs]

I haven't been able to figure out how to post pix..
Jamie and I still call him Baby.His registered name is Dauns Fiery Spirit. He is a good sized boy.Finally stopped nursing AFTER his 3rd birthday.
A clinic or something away from his mom and uncle would do him a world of good.He is totally attached to them.The umbilical cord has NOT been cut .

[wildwoman]

you DID have something else cut didn't you? ;-)
Have Jamie log in here and post pics of him.
Since I've been home tonight I have been QUITE entertained with Joe and Krissie-I asked hubby the other day if we shouldn't just get Joe a cow to chase around the pasture. I haven't put everybody together yet-cause then half would be left out in the rain. OK new question-what does everybody else do about that? Keep them split up so each has access to their own stall or have mulitple covered areas/stalls in same pasture? (if so what design?)

[luvmyarabs]

Yes ma'am ..He did lose something ...I was at work but Jamie and her dad were the bad guy's and , well Bill left the proof in a bag nailed to the barn door after Dr.Briskey did the deed !!
We have a loafing area with 2 troughs. 3 can eat there fine.But NONE of them will let the old girl in, so she is brought in AM & PM for her feedings .I think when you have a senior then you need a secure place for them to have meals without the others being able to get to them.
According to what your area is like , why not a covered area with a central feeder ?

[wildwoman]

Ummmm, Bette,that was a big graphic (EW)
y people are all divided up -when I had George and Lex out at my friend's place we had built a 3 sided covered shed that was 20x16 and Lex (30 year old) wouldn't share that with George so we doubled the size and she still ran him off-but after all THAT the stupid neighbors refused to heed the "NO TRESSPASSING" and NO ENTRY signs and friend's hubby freaked that they would be hurt and sue him-so we brought them both back home-we are talking 2 years hand clearing 7 acres of hawthorn trees and built a dang impressive structure and poof-no good. PPPBBBTTTTT! Wish I could tear it down and move it here.
With the crappy weather they will stay divided for now.
It's just sad that Hilary is the biggest (almost 16hh) and the biggest wuss-and I don't want her to get beat up and run all over by Joe and Krissy (both 14 something hh)

[wildwoman]

Well-the weather was nice for a few days and I had a couple days off to be all entertained by the herd dynamics-tied Krissie up in the barn so she wouldn't see what was going on in the lower ajoining pasture till the rest had it all worked out. Kris is a freak anyway and screamed cause she wasn't in the mix and KNEW someone somewhere was having some fun without her.
Had them all in the same pasture before I turned out herdbound freak and all went well. THOSE darn SLUTTY girls ALL went winking and squirting all over (even Lex) worked out their thing-but Joe was in HEAVEN with his harem-after 2 hours of running all over I pulled Lex back out (she IS 30 after all-poor thing) and left the rest. Had fed their grain in the morning, but not hay-and had 2 more piles than horses-so they played musical hay piles and were OK-then when done eating-back to being goofy-Joe and his herding-but then they all were sleeping next to each other-Joe lays flat out-George and Hil sleep sternally reclining and Kris stays standing till she almost falls over and wakes up.-so they stayed in a tight group and vascilated between sleeping and being a cute little herd and runing around like maniacs.
So it SEEMED like all was well for a couple days-but then Hil got a couple either bite marks or hair scraping kicks-poor thing-how long would you wait and see if they work it out? She is back in her own paddock now cause it is rainy and cold and I don't want her out in it (there are other places in the field she COULD go to get out of rain but not RIGHTNEXTTOTHEOTHERS), and I DEFINATELY don't want her to get hurt. She is low on totem pole of all. She is actually getting along well with the girls-but that freaking dang Joe is REALLY full of himself and QUITE the buttnugget toward the girls. I will put everybody back together while Joe is gone this weekend.