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Post by sunlightslady on Apr 1, 2008 22:35:27 GMT -5
Its to bad to see the amount of people who jump to the wrong conclusions of this email. It was leaked in a spiteful manner to make the most of the problems for CBER. If Sam has incurred higher then normal bills from caring for horses, we as supporters should help. The amount of board that the horses that went to the E coast was pretty high and the cost of feed is not getting cheaper. If people are backing out of adopting then they should not be able to adopt afterwards. meaning QT paid up front. One person cannot hold up the CBER rescue alone. I can see how it has become overwhelming. so with that said maybe we should be more thoughtful towards the cost of QT and the care giving to adopted horses. Since the cost of horses are not going to get lower. We need to address this and though it might be not be a popular idea the cost of QT might have to increase to cover the increased cost. This is a something that would ensure the best rehab and care for their future homes since it is all about the horses. Isnt why we are doing this in the first place? No one said horses were cheap.
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Post by quatzie on Apr 1, 2008 23:13:44 GMT -5
I sent an email few months ago to a CBER Volunteer, about a fund raising efforts and wanted to get the approval before attempting it. It fell on deaf ears, I was never contacted. I was reading the post of losses from fund raising efforts, folks backing out, not paying for QT, pledges not materializing. I tried but the message never got heard ... so to the lose of my trying the message I got. The funding issue was not material .. so I was a little deflated by my offer and moved on to other rescue efforts closer to home. I think communication is critical in any organization if it's to survive. I did try.. but this is not a surprise to me. I hope things can be re-organized and issues be addressed and fund raising efforts move forward.. My thoughts and prayer are with you.. be positive and go forth and do good things
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Post by afinenettle on Apr 1, 2008 23:24:00 GMT -5
This is the e-mail that was leaked to a member of the ICER board. So who posted it to ICER. That would be a place to start....
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Post by pnp4kidz on Apr 2, 2008 0:00:11 GMT -5
I still don't understand where all the money DID go... what are the expenses that CBER uses over $100,000 a year for? that is a lot of expense money for horses... that is like $10,000 per month... so - what DOES that pay for? that would pay for the $300 board for 30 horses... just fyi. why didn't that cover it for the 11? the more it comes up, the more you have to wonder... I'm sure Marlene doesn't make THAT much, especially at only paying the payroll taxes of $3 K for a quarter... it doesn't add up. where does that money go? what does it pay for? heck, just the $30 times the 1000 horses adopted last year yielded Sam $30,000 income... I'm not aware, but what is her full time job? to pay for her own horses, rent, utilities, etc... just wondering...
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Post by Admin on Apr 2, 2008 1:54:57 GMT -5
Can someone from CBER give us a list of horses who need immediate help?
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Post by lisam on Apr 2, 2008 10:43:56 GMT -5
I am a member of the ICERs board, as well as a member of several other rescue boards. I peruse Craigslist every day, and saw the ad there long before I saw it on the ICERs board. I don't know why this is turning into a "witch hunt" to find out who posted it--what will that accomplish?
On most of the other boards I go to, the RO board is considered a CBER board. A place where no one can say anything even remotely critical about CBER, or you get attacked and even banned.
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Post by michellep on Apr 2, 2008 11:03:59 GMT -5
Ok, maybe I missed something here.........My question is this, why are horses being bailed and then abandoned for Sam or somebody else to take care of and try and rehome? ? Sure they are off the lot and "safe", but did anyone ever stop to think of what a burden it would be for somebody else to take care of this new horse that they may or may not have wanted? I remember being asked specifically before I took the offer of a loan for Turtle that I wasnt going to just bail on him. At the time I thought that question was strange, as I was firm on my committment to him. And I guess that I was naive when I saw CBER sponsered horses. I guess that Im shocked that people would bail a horse and then leave them in the care of somebody else. Maybe I still have this hole situation wrong (lord only knows I have been told im not the brightest bulb in the pack). Bottom line, she asked for help. Because of my own financial situation I have not been able to. Now that I know I will try to think of ways to help. I remember going to a Prize Ride a few years ago and the proceeds went to CBER for expenses and also helped showcase a few of the rescues that were still available for adoption. Why not something like that? I know that there are probably lots of details for something like that, but hey given the chance to show off your rescue horse why not? Isnt that what a rescue is all about? Proving these were NOT throw away lives??
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Post by pnp4kidz on Apr 2, 2008 11:39:01 GMT -5
Just so we are clear... you are right Mama, I don't know you... were you under a different name? anyways, yes, it is hard to express what we mean in a post of written word... emphasis is missing, detail is missing... so give me the grace you yourself expect... k?
So, from your post, I take it that CBER is paying Sam then... ? and her expenses?
It is so strange to me that some of you are bothered by someone doing rescue actually funding what they do, and that as the leader she might pay towards the upkeep of horses that were rescued... but no one seems to hesitate to call on any one of the many other rescues to take a horse on forever... including us... and we get no funding!!!
Is it hard to work full time and then do this rescue thing??? d**n right it is!!! and I do it! how do you think I support all of the group adoption CBER horses we have agreed to essentially foster forever??? Yes, I work full time, so does my sister... then we come home and work all night... with horses... and do we get to go buy stuff at the mall? I think not. I'm happy that Sam is there to rescue the horses... but I do think CBER is not in a position to hire her at a salary that exceeds their expenses.... She should take only what is left AFTER all of the horses are cared for...
Yes, I've posted a few times on this, and as of yet, no info is forthcoming... where does all the money go? and I guess now this new info might explain it... does CBER pay for Sam's living expenses? why isn't her salary on the expense records? how does that work?
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Post by rodeo51 on Apr 2, 2008 11:42:18 GMT -5
Nice post Michellep
If everyone would take the time to look at the sponsered horses you will see that Shera was abandoned and is in need of a home. Hue Grant is also there..... Not fair for Sam to continue looking after these horses. You all want to rescue a horse...here is your chance! Call Sam and ask about them.
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Post by Tockita on Apr 2, 2008 11:59:30 GMT -5
Katie there is nothing wrong with addressing or discussing an issue in an adult fashion.. especially if it is a heartfelt attempt to find a solution. It is the hysterical, escalation that turns it into nothing but a b*tchfest that is soon more rumor and supposition then fact that I have an issue with.
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Post by paintedlady on Apr 2, 2008 12:12:34 GMT -5
Who ever started this, has acomplished what they set out to do. We have lost our focus on the horses in need RIGHT NOW !! FOCUS ON THE HORSES !!!! PLEASE !!
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Post by pnp4kidz on Apr 2, 2008 12:29:08 GMT -5
I disagree... we need to look closely at the finances to make changes if CBER is to stay afloat. why do you keep trying to redirect us away from that? Katie had good questions. we are trying to be proactive and keep a strong rescue operation going, only in that way will we be able to continue saving horses... to save 'one' now, and forget that the finances are in dire trouble is to cut off your nose to spite your face.
Let us be adults and flush this all out. Sam has been saying publically that she needs financial help. we are trying to do that. first we start with where the money goes, then we look at how we can alter that. it's called financial planning
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Post by djrepp on Apr 2, 2008 12:30:18 GMT -5
I have had Hue Grant since he came out of QT. Sam left him on the page to get him exposure. I have been fostering him and taking care of all of his expenses. I have just ask Sam to be allowed to adopt him mostly because I have him in my care and am having other people look after him from time to time and wanted to release CBER from any responsibility should anyone get hurt by him which is not likely to happen but with horses one never knows.
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Post by icehorse on Apr 2, 2008 12:44:23 GMT -5
"Perhaps Sam/CBER need to scale back dramatically on their rescue operations, and make this more sustainable for all."
I've talked to Sam on the phone several times and I think she is an extremely reasonable person. She went way above and beyond to help me out with my adoptions. So I'm a big fan. I know I say some crazy stuff when I'm stressed.
I've adopted 7 horses off the lot and none of them were broke(except Lotus is trackbroke), they were old, lame and blind. None of them ridable(yet). I do not believe in slaughter, that is why I'm here to help adopt horses...but I think that the selection has to be a littel bit pickier. Save the pregnant mares, babies, and sound horses(broke or not). It costs so much to care for them once they get home, they need Way more than our own fat happy horses-so the huge expense to get these lame horses healthy again...well, I don't want to say it's not worth it. All horses lives are worth it, but it may help for awhile to not list the permanently lame horses. Just MHO. I'm not a very eloquent writer, but hopefully this makes sense.
MTA: 3 of them were perm. lame...makes me not want to adopt more.
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Post by Tockita on Apr 2, 2008 12:55:01 GMT -5
Ok well lets look at hay. 14 tons SHOULD be 2800 lbs but we know thats not true anymore so.. In calif we would figure tons X 16=bales. balesx100= lbs lbs /20= # days of feed. I come out with 1120 horse/days. Divide by # of horses so lets look at the number 11 given in the email to the BOD and you come out with 101 or 3 1/2 months. Here 14 tons of hay would be at LEAST $3124.80 without tax, and that is only if you shopped in the right place. So we need to find out how many horses are there still not supported. I assumed some of the QT $ was paying for the panels and fencing that was installed. I'm not clear on if she paid for the tractor and trailer for CBER and it is something that could be sold, or needs some fund raising grant writing to help pay for.. or if it is hers and was just mentioning it because it was an expenditure she made to be able to haul horses from the lot herself. The $30 would be to cover gas, and some payment for purchasing the trailer? $30 less gas its still going to be a lot of rides off the lot before its paid for. As scary as it is to think about it not doing QT; In the beginning if the horses weren't paid for and removed from the lot.. They were still at risk of shipping, however.. there were less abandoned horses then. I know I am not ready to take a horse tomorrow, but we had people who did QT, on a case by case basis, and they did pretty well for the most part. (as good as Deb did, for 1/2 the cost) But they were not generally feeding 11 extra horses... So what to do. Do they sell something that makes it harder to operate? Go back to no horse gets pulled unless it has somewhere to go?
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Post by watermarkfarm on Apr 2, 2008 13:06:50 GMT -5
I keep thinking of that parable in "The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People"
A man is walking through the woods, and he comes upon a man sawing a log with a dull saw. He asked the man why he keeps sawing with a dull saw, why not stop for a few minutes and sharpen it, making his sawing efforts more effective? The man sawing replies that he does not have time to stop and sharpen his saw, because he must keep sawing all day in order to cut the log.
I love that story.
OK, I am roughly paraphrasing here. But back in my management days, I would often spot a frustrated and inefficient staff member and stop them and gently say "You need to stop and sharpen your saw." This would mean, stop and reorganize for a few minutes and figure out the most efficient way to move forward, even if it means losing work time.
Let's help Sam and CBER and other rescues sharpen their saw. This means looking at the whole picture, good and bad. It may also mean stepping back from the constantly looming urgency of "The Truck" in order to shore up our efforts into something more sustainable.
Katie
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Post by mamabuckshorses on Apr 2, 2008 13:26:06 GMT -5
I had no intention of having my words twisted. I have NO IDEA if CBER pays Sam's living expenses, or a wage for that matter and I never meant to insinuate any such thing. No I have never had another sign-on name, and I certainly meant no disrespect to anyone involved. I meant only that IF Sam had a full time job there would be no one else to do the things that she does for CBER, no one to go to the feedlot, no one to be there for vet checks, etc. As I sit here and write this I am afraid to even post it, for fear that it will be twisted, misconstrued and misinterpreted. How sad.
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Post by frr2 on Apr 2, 2008 13:38:14 GMT -5
Say we rescued $1000 horses last year - that is $1000 dollars raised. Actually, at $100 per horse, 1000 horses, that's $100,000. That's it from me... I'm going back to "invisible cloak" mode Peg
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Post by icehorse on Apr 2, 2008 13:40:23 GMT -5
Hey Mamasbuckhorses...Happy Birthday!
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Post by qhflicka on Apr 2, 2008 13:42:40 GMT -5
Tinkerslady says "say we rescued ($)?1000 horses last year - that is $1000 dollars raised. " I think you meant to say "say we rescued 1000 horses last year x $100 (fee) = $100 000" 1000 x 100 is not 1000
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Post by mamabuckshorses on Apr 2, 2008 13:55:18 GMT -5
Thanks for the Birthday Wishes!!!
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Post by tinkerslady on Apr 2, 2008 14:02:07 GMT -5
Tinkerslady says "say we rescued ($)?1000 horses last year - that is $1000 dollars raised. " I think you meant to say "say we rescued 1000 horses last year x $100 (fee) = $100 000" 1000 x 100 is not 1000 WHOOPS! Ok so my math is way off! I just mean to say for me making even 50K a year I can still barely afford one horse let alone 12. So where does the care for these horses go if not to Sam? So who else is volunteering to go down to the lot, check all the horses and pick and choose which ones get rescued and which do not? You could not pay ME any amount of money to do that and look in their eyes and say "no - your fate is sealed to something worse than death itself. Death at the hands of brutality and terror"
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Post by cutiepiepmu on Apr 2, 2008 14:24:45 GMT -5
I am not getting in the middle of this - but my only thought is about quarantine - wasn't this policy about being quarantined at an approved facility put in place because of the strangles outbreak? When we brought malibu home, as well as my barn owner at the time got Gucci and another paint horse-long back gelding with AWFUL feet but great personality(wish i could remember his name) we did the quarantine at home. We set up a private area that had a run in type shelter. It was a small gravel paddock that we put down bedding in the shed. NO ONE for the barn came in contact with that area - we posted signs that it was quarantine - hands were washed, shoes cleaned, ect before even entering the barn. We kept ALL of the horses that came in quarantined for minimum of 30 days - After each horse, the area was sanitized completely. I don't think you can discontinue the quarantine, but am curious if we are able to go back to self quarantine since the strangles outbreak seems to have subsided?? If the horses went straight from the lot to an approved home who was set up properly to quarantine, wouldn't this avoid any horses being "left" there? I am done - that was my only thought..... Sara
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Post by cutiepiepmu on Apr 2, 2008 14:35:13 GMT -5
horses name was Durango Just remembered! Sara
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Post by michellep on Apr 2, 2008 15:11:24 GMT -5
I have to ask this question again....How does 11 or 12 horses get bailed/pulled off the lot and then abandoned? Isnt there some policy or something in place for this to not happen? I understand that maybe the heart was in the right place thinking that okay they are off the lot, but how can somebody just abandon that animal for someone else to care for?? Thats the part I dont understand. Just my opinion, sure that animal is safe from not being shipped, but if the person that is left to feed and care for that horse isnt able to financially isnt the horse in the same desparate place? (I mean no disrespect to Sam or the volunteers that took care of Turtle while he was in QT, I was completely happy with his care) Seems like there needs to be some kind of plan in the event a horse is bailed and then abandoned.
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Post by pnp4kidz on Apr 2, 2008 15:48:17 GMT -5
<<<snip>>>Say we rescued $1000 horses last year - that is $1000 dollars raised. Add misc donations = still doesn't add up to much. Now figure several people bail on the adoption and leaves 12 horses at Sam's AFTER the paid quarentine. $1000/12 and divide that by 4 months each = $20 dollars a horse per month. WOW she pays herself A LOT! I wonder how she can feed a horse grain and hay for $20 a month. I certainly couldn't. Now lets take it further - Lets say Misc donations add up to $5000. Now divide that the same way, then add in the horse that was rescued several years ago and showed back up that Sam would not let stay there. That was another cost of $600 (est) and the cost of webite $120 a year, $3000.00 a year for accountant (pretty cheap too) So where does all the money go? <<<snip>>>
so, the math is off by TIMES 1000... so, do that math again, the 1000 horses last year saved (actually the post said more like 1800), brought in 150 each, but Sam says she pays 50 of that to taxes for the 'sale'. so, 100 per horse, is 100, 000... now... that gives us $20,000 to care for each horse, and you ask, 'who can care for a horse for that???" and I say, ME. (and you, and you and you)
and so, let's say it really doesn't cost that much... (and I'd tell you that it is true, it does NOT cost $20K to keep a horse...), so, you start with $100,000, and your figures here... $3000 a year for bookkeeping... oh heck, let's go all out, and pay her $3000 per MONTH, and that is gonna be a full time bookkeeper, but is only $36000... so you have $64000 leftover... and you say $120 per year for webhosting... ok, ours is about that... so I'll bite... that leaves $63750...
Where does that money go? Donations pay for each horse, and at MINIMUM the first month of QT, so, Camelot Farms gets 1000 horses per year (plus) of QT board of $300, so $300,000 per year operating expenses... and Sam gets $30,000 for transporting expenses, which should have paid off the trailer I'd think... and of course there is gas... but the trip is fairly short, someone said 10 miles? so, there is some for her time in there...
I obviously see the need for someone to do the work, I'm just asking... does CBER pay Sam? or any of her personal expenses? and where does the 'other' $63,000 plus per year go? and what was the $20k LOC used to pay for? CBER shows no assets, shows no employees, no buildings or land, owns no horses and doesn't bail any themselves (or if they do it is one or two here and there)...
why is it a crime to ask what that much money is paying for? If it pays for a new halter for each horse, wormer, and hay for the lot horses, that is fine... I'm just askin...
mta: in answer to one post above, My understanding from Sam's blog is that the majority of the '11' horses abandoned at her place were actually the ones who were group adopted, and waiting to be shipped to the East Coast... so were not abandon'ed per se, they were just only paid for QT by the groups for a month, and stayed longer... they had a home, and did go to her, just a little late. did she ever pay the late board??? of course they weren't in QT any longer, what is follow up board costs? I don't know! I assume it's lower, but not sure!
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Post by earlybp on Apr 2, 2008 16:43:15 GMT -5
I would assume that there were some costs associated with each horse saved off that lot, which would eat up some of the $100 per horse. Also, I would bet that some horses didn't pay QT expenses. But, is that enough to eat up all that money? I don't know. I'm not privy to the books. I recommended/requested more transparency 2 years ago. If CBER has a book-keeper on payroll, it shouldn't be too hard to figure out what's happening here.
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Post by Tockita on Apr 2, 2008 16:54:41 GMT -5
It wasn't JUST 11 or 12 horses for the year.. It was 11 left in Jan of this year. Sam had Felicity a LONG time before Angi took her, and Sally, and Amy, and Silver, and Raden, and Tiny Tim, and...
I'm not saying there isn't ways to cut back or improvements to be done. All we can do is look at what works and what doesn't. I think the thread is going OK. It is more about problem solving and examining realities then just being negative to get attention;)
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Post by michelle on Apr 2, 2008 17:10:31 GMT -5
It wasn't JUST 11 or 12 horses for the year.. It was 11 left in Jan of this year. Sam had Felicity a LONG time before Angi took her, and Sally, and Amy, and Silver, and Raden, and Tiny Tim, and... I'm not saying there isn't ways to cut back or improvements to be done. All we can do is look at what works and what doesn't. I think the thread is going OK. It is more about problem solving and examining realities then just being negative to get attention;) WendyD has Sally, and several others including Juliet. From before Sal's adoption and when she was returned, Wendy has supported her for a long, long time, probably over a year. From when I was a volunteer (past tense), I know that she does not get any reimbursement or financial assistance. She never says a word though. At the rate CBER pays, that would be $900/mo. Not insinuating anything about Sam or CBER, I'm just saying, that is what she does. I cannot say enough positive things about Wendy.
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Post by pnp4kidz on Apr 2, 2008 18:23:05 GMT -5
Tock, I know that Tiny Tim was fully supported by his adopter, just not brought home... she paid every penny of his board and expenses, so don't lump her as an abandoned horse.
and, I AM asking for transparency, we have questions, and I'd like Sam and Bookie to come and post the income and expense sheet. It is about due for distribution for last year anyway. I'm not asking you guys, I am asking the BOD and Pres.
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