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Post by pnp4kidz on Apr 3, 2008 15:08:03 GMT -5
Wow. I guess I don't need to say any more. My figure of 100,000 IS way off Tock, it was more like 400,000 and... CBER now pays for Sam's car, a truck, her tractor, her feed, vet, farrier, board... and a huge chunck is 'farm/horse expense'... wonder what THAT is? as none of the horses are TRAINED by CBER, or BOARDED by CBER... or otherwise vetted or whatever... this is amazing... cause there must be some behinds the scenes stuff that would just kick butt... cause none of this is happening in OUR world... where ARE these horses? that are vetted, etc... ?
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Post by gratefulknits on Apr 3, 2008 15:18:36 GMT -5
Wow. I guess I don't need to say any more. My figure of 100,000 IS way off Tock, it was more like 400,000 and... Beth, where is that number coming from? I'm getting really lost here ...
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Post by ilovemytb on Apr 3, 2008 15:21:02 GMT -5
When I inquired about whether these horses are vetted prior to be adopted, I was told that the adopter pays for ALL expenses relating to the care of the horse; including, but not limited to: vaccinations, blood panels, worming, floating (as necessary), farrier care (as needed) and the $300 QT fee.
The 2006 tax document states that CBER purchases the horses, they do not. It also states that the horses are boarded, trained and given medical attention PRIOR to being offered to the public.
Has the process changed since 2006? If so, I would imagine the outgoing dollars would be less, because CBER isn't boarding, training or providing medical care.
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Post by greysquirrel on Apr 3, 2008 15:39:33 GMT -5
Wow. I guess I don't need to say any more. My figure of 100,000 IS way off Tock, it was more like 400,000 and... CBER now pays for Sam's car, a truck, her tractor, her feed, vet, farrier, board... and a huge chunck is 'farm/horse expense'... wonder what THAT is? as none of the horses are TRAINED by CBER, or BOARDED by CBER... or otherwise vetted or whatever... this is amazing... cause there must be some behinds the scenes stuff that would just kick butt... cause none of this is happening in OUR world... where ARE these horses? that are vetted, etc... ? What? Why would CBER pay for all of those things and then turn around and threaten to euthanize horses because they can't afford to take care of them? That doesn't make any sense.
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Post by pnp4kidz on Apr 3, 2008 15:44:02 GMT -5
Thanks for asking Hope, follow the link above to the 2006 tax return, filed just late summer last year. it's amazing.
over $1K for utilities, and yet CBER doesn't own an office... the assets include Sam's Jetta and a truck, and farm equipment, etc... and it says that CBER buys horses, vets them, trains them, then offers them to the public... wow. it just goes on and on... I'm still digesting.
$26K for 'farm/horse expenses'... $12K for the Vet!!! $34 for 'board expenses'! yet they are paying for the feed, and utilities for the ranch! how does THAT work??? $9.7K for car expenses... and the biggie, $254K for the 'purchase of horses...'... I'm just speachless
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Post by Tockita on Apr 3, 2008 15:45:56 GMT -5
Beth I'm thinking that the $400, 000 includes the money that comes in for the horses, what is paid for QT, vet, farrier, and so on.. then shown as expenses. Anything you send into CBERs accounts that is not refunded has to be declared.
Look I'm not saying it's perfect... and maybe it is a good time to try to get Chuck to lower his prices. I'm also more then wiling to say that there often isn't a ton of info made public, but then I think there are reasons why that started that had nothing to do with hiding finances.
If I recall correctly Sam deeded that car to the rescue, the rescue did not buy it. Same thing with the Water truck?
300 horses in QT would be $90,000 if each stayed only one month. I know that Faith stayed 2 as I am sure some others stayed over as well. They probably do pay something to use the farm, and for the panels, hogs fuel, and so on.
The training is more likely what they are paying the riders to come to the lot and ride the horses. It was said awhile ago that the riders are paid.
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Post by tinkerslady on Apr 3, 2008 16:01:23 GMT -5
Thanks for asking Hope, follow the link above to the 2006 tax return, filed just late summer last year. it's amazing. over $1K for utilities, and yet CBER doesn't own an office... the assets include Sam's Jetta and a truck, and farm equipment, etc... and it says that CBER buys horses, vets them, trains them, then offers them to the public... wow. it just goes on and on... I'm still digesting. $26K for 'farm/horse expenses'... $12K for the Vet!!! $34 for 'board expenses'! yet they are paying for the feed, and utilities for the ranch! how does THAT work??? $9.7K for car expenses... and the biggie, $254K for the 'purchase of horses...'... I'm just speachless Maybe you don't like CBER anymore but trying to get people upset will do the horses no good whatsoever.
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Post by ilovemytb on Apr 3, 2008 16:21:24 GMT -5
I don't think this is a case of someone "not liking CBER anymore", but some very good concerns are being addressed. If there are indeed major financial problems, an objective point of view should not be seen as "not liking CBER anymore".
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Post by penny/pals on Apr 3, 2008 17:04:26 GMT -5
pnp4kidz why don't you write Sam or Marlene and get the information from them? Have you even tried to do that? Of course $ information is important but why are you asking about it on this board why don't you talk to people who actually know the information you want?
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Post by qhflicka on Apr 3, 2008 17:37:11 GMT -5
Supporters who defend CBER on other boards NEED to know the facts. It is very damaging to CBER when an Anti-CBER person proves you wrong with proof, such as the CBER TAX RETURNS or anything else, when the truth eventually comes/leaks out. You NEED to be ACCURATE and HONEST when discussing CBER business otherwise you do more harm than good and cause CBER to lose credibility. CBER supporters are then labelled liars or are accused of trying to hide the truth. What supporters NEED are facts and not opinions or guesses.
The problems with CBER's finances are not going to just go away, by just wishing them gone, or by buring one's head in the sand and hoping for the best, or trying to sidetrack/end a discussion that is way past due. In Sam's email she clearly states, she is concerned about herself and CBER going under .... soon.
Put aside your emotions, your opinions, your denial of the facts, your egos and be logical, rational and mature about finding solutions to the problems, one at a time.
I bet anti-CBER people know more about CBER financials than CBER supporters do. They seem to have combed the TAX Returns etc. with a fine tooth comb.
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Post by stormlady on Apr 3, 2008 18:04:22 GMT -5
Beth, when reviewing the 2006 tax return, keep in mind the the QT and board fees to Camelot Farm, and indeed Camelot Farm, were not in place. I may be misremembering, but Camelot Farm charging board separately to the farm didn't start until early last year, or pehaps late 2006. Before that, CBER would have been paying board, farm expenses, etc directly, especially since horses were often kept at different locations. I will bet that the 2007 tax return will look somewhat different, and that the change to paying Camelot Farms as a separate entity was made in an attempt to keep things straighter. I don't know that that explains it all, but it might help.
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Post by ilovemytb on Apr 3, 2008 18:35:23 GMT -5
I bet anti-CBER people know more about CBER financials than CBER supporters do. They have studied the TAX Returns etc. with a fine toothed comb.
If you are considering donating to any organization, I would hope that you comb their financials with a fine tooth comb. And ask questions if there is anything unclear. It's called fiscal responsibility, and it is the organizations duty to provide their supporters with documentation on where their hard earned dollars are going.
I, for one, would have an issue if my donation were being used for someone's personal vehicle payments just because they drove the car while doing business. However, reimbursing for mileage is perfectly acceptable.
There are many inconsitencies in the information that CBER has made public, which have been only account balances and tax returns. Posting a monthly AR/AP budget, so to speak, would assist in making things more transparent.
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Post by pikzeedust on Apr 3, 2008 18:44:26 GMT -5
Wow, this has turned into a real sh!t storm! However, yes, I agree all information should be made public. I think we all just had the horses in mind and never really questioned much.
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Post by countrygirl on Apr 3, 2008 18:56:07 GMT -5
I think a lot of anti CBER people (and CBER Supporters) look at the financials but don't really understand what they are looking at. I have heard many times that CBER has profits of 400K + because they see that is what came in. This is obviously NOT true but that is what they keeping "harping on" They then go off on tangents and start making assumptions and spreading rumors all because they really don't understand what they are looking at. It costs money to run a rescue, especially on the scale that CBER operates. Without a way to pay the expenses, they would not be able to do what they do.
I agree with qhflicka that CBER needs to be totally upfront about how they are structured and how their financials work. You will always have people who don't agree with their business model and decide not to support them, but being upfront avoids a lot of problems and will stop the theory that they are trying to hide something.
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Post by djrepp on Apr 3, 2008 18:56:28 GMT -5
In time, all questions to people who are concerned will be answered. Now you are saying that CBER does not buy the horses from Chuck? How come my Bill of Sale comes from CBER.
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Post by lorsadoon on Apr 3, 2008 19:07:12 GMT -5
Beth, when reviewing the 2006 tax return, keep in mind the the QT and board fees to Camelot Farm, and indeed Camelot Farm, were not in place. I may be misremembering, but Camelot Farm charging board separately to the farm didn't start until early last year, or pehaps late 2006. Before that, CBER would have been paying board, farm expenses, etc directly, especially since horses were often kept at different locations. I will bet that the 2007 tax return will look somewhat different, and that the change to paying Camelot Farms as a separate entity was made in an attempt to keep things straighter. I don't know that that explains it all, but it might help. Board was being charged in 2005. I paid $10 per day for Dream before I picked her up at the lot. (Not complaining about the cost, just saying it was being paid). I have the receipt to prove it. The only thing that bothered me was the fact I was not told I was going to owe this until I showed up to pick her up. Dream is not listed on the CBER site. Her lot name was Sheba. I adopted her in Nov, 2005. Teddie, (lot name Pilgrim) is not listed either. She was a bucking stock mare, rescued in 2006. Morpheous is listed. Probably because he was rescued 3 or 4 times. None of Parksfarms horses are listed, Calloway, Linen (who was euthanised), Sir Lance and Mindi and Mandi (who she fostered for awhile before they were taken by Shari) Oh and she had Cheyenne before she went to Carolyn. My problem in all this is the secrecy issue. WE HAVE BEEN THE ONES TO SUPPORT CBER AND ALL THE HORSES, so I feel we have the right to know where the money goes. I have not donated to CBER since they shot Lavender and Meadow. I have directed my money to other rescues. I just can't send money to an organization who is so disrepectful of its contributors. Telling the truth is always the best policy. That way the people have a clear idea of what they are supporting. Then they can choose to support a rescue or not. At least they know what they are getting into. And yes, CBER has been the only chance for these horses, and I think that is why alot of us do not want to see the only option they have collapse. But if you think of about the lack of enthusiasim that is prevalent on this board lately, you can tell that there is a big problem here. And the horses are the ones who are going to suffer. Not the people who run CBER.
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Post by penny/pals on Apr 3, 2008 19:11:47 GMT -5
"But if you think of about the lack of enthusiasim that is prevalent on this board lately, you can tell that there is a big problem here. And the horses are the ones who are going to suffer. Not the people who run CBER. " I think one of the problems with enthusiasim is the finacial state of alot of the people who have rescued in the past. We are all struggling with this economy and struggle to come up with funds.
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Post by earlybp on Apr 3, 2008 19:28:21 GMT -5
I am reminded of Jung who said, "A bright light casts a big shadow."
There have been so many horses saved. I have one in my pasture right now. I can see him enjoying a bucolic roll.
I don't know how to reconcile the really great work that everyone at CBER has done, with the stories that I hear, and I've heard a lot of them, too many of them to all be lies.
Lavender and Meadow's deaths were particularly hard to take.
I haven't donated to CBER for nearly two years, and I feel bad, because there are some great horses that died because I (and others) didn't come forward to bail them. At the same time, my gut says that something's not right.
That's where I'm at.
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Post by pnp4kidz on Apr 3, 2008 19:42:46 GMT -5
If it is ONLY being used for CBER business that is ok Tock, but just like any time you donate your time to a non-profit, you must prove you have alternate transportation and resources to maintain yourself personally.... that you buy your own stamps for instance, and office supplies... and NOT use the business ones.
so, if Sam has alternate sources of income to pay her living expenses, great. same with transportation... does she have another car to go shopping in? because you are not allowed to take the company car home for personal use. you also can only take the deduction for the expenses directly incurred in the business for utilities, etc... not for the entire house... and you can only do that if you can prove there is a way to distinguish... you can't take a deduction for paying yourself for hauling AND for the truck trailer and gas... same with board... you can't put what you paid for grain, shavings, etc, AND pay board to yourself... now, you may be totally right, and she paid board to others, but for the horses "I" got in 06, the QT was paid to them... and CBER never paid any board for anyone... nor vet, or grain... those were paid for by the individual buyer.
the amount stated for purchase, remember, is what CBER pays to Chuck, not what is listed as the 'bail' price... remember that on top of each cost is added a fee... so, that was a lot of horses... and one has to think that represents directly a quarter of a million dollars we all donated to CBER that was sent directly into Chuck's bank account. did they buy from anyone else?
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Post by penny/pals on Apr 3, 2008 19:43:32 GMT -5
I'm done trying to redirect no one is listening. :/
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NanciK
Super Pooper Scooper
Posts: 0
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Post by NanciK on Apr 3, 2008 19:46:22 GMT -5
OK everyone - unless you are a CPA specializing in non-for-profit taxation ... take your questions and speculations to someone with the specialized knowledge and authority who can answer them, then come back here and report.
This thread is going in circles and has 10x more pages/posts than any horse-in-need thread. What a waste.
Meanwhile, there are horses who need our help RIGHT NOW.
DID ANYONE NOTICE?
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Post by pnp4kidz on Apr 3, 2008 19:46:34 GMT -5
sorry Penny, this is a very important discussion. Sam may join us if she desires to keep her donors informed and keep this source alive and vital. We are grasping for her explanation, and truely have hope that there is an answer that will make us all say 'OH, I see... '... we dont' want personal private responses... we'd like to know that it is tranparent. that we know where our money goes when we donate. we are here for the horses. not necessarily to befriend Sam. we must do due diligence with our donations, it is the time we live in.
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NanciK
Super Pooper Scooper
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Post by NanciK on Apr 3, 2008 19:48:50 GMT -5
Beth - with all due respect ... take it to Sam directly, and come back and report your findings to those who might want to know.
Why keep digging here when there's clearly no one with the answers who is reponding to you?
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Post by pnp4kidz on Apr 3, 2008 19:50:03 GMT -5
I'm sorry Nancy, but I find it offensive that we are being told that you can't understand unless you are a specialized CPA. that is patronizing. we are smart, informed donors. and we are doing due diligence. this is NOT a CBER board. this is a Rescues board. the reason that the tax returns are public is that non-profit status requires transparency so that donors can do DUE DILIGENCE and ensure their money is spent with the correct intent.
we deserve to know. and most non-profits seek out the donors and GIVE them this info. you don't have to ask.
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Post by pnp4kidz on Apr 3, 2008 19:51:52 GMT -5
and Nancy, Sam is not here, but aside from yourself and Penny and a few others, there is a group of us having this discussion, and I am learning from our discussion. I would like to hear Sam's answers but from history so far I don't think she is going to be forthcoming... either in private or in public.
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Post by pnp4kidz on Apr 3, 2008 19:55:08 GMT -5
But, here you go Nancy, I just sent this to Sam. I will post later whatever she replies. perhaps she will shed light. Beth
Hi, At the request of the RO board on a thread related to CBER financial statements of 06 which were posted late last year… I am wondering if you can shed some light on the expenses and assets from the balance sheet?
Beth Kennalley
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Post by cybercat on Apr 3, 2008 20:06:10 GMT -5
God, I thought this was over...we do have two horses on Chuck's feedlot who still need funds and homes. The phrase "beating a dead horse" is stuck in my mind and I can't get it out, I am ashamed to say...
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Post by galaxy on Apr 3, 2008 20:32:25 GMT -5
I agree cybercat- lets put it to bed.
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Post by lorsadoon on Apr 3, 2008 20:58:21 GMT -5
I am sorry, but this should not be put to bed, ie. ignored.
According to the RO board, there are 9 horses that need homes. Yasu, Hue Grant, Atlas, Champ, Azrael, Kalikota, Timy Tim, Margarita & Ember. Additionally, two more are listed on the CBER website, Shera and Dancer, who is listed as pending. Atlas, Champ, Azrael, Kalikota and Margarita are fostered. So I am guessing CBER does not spend money on these horses, the fosters do. I guess that means that Yasu, Hue Grant, Tiny Tim, Ember, Shera and Dancer are supported by CBER. Is this correct? Gemini and Diva are currently on the lot and need help.
Whenever a horse is abandoned by its potential adopter, a notice should immediatly be put up stating this. It should have at least 30 days to find a new home after all, at least the QT has been paid on it for that amount of time. The horse should be offered on a gift contract as a next step, then if all else fails the horse should be put down. I have no problem with that, as long as the horse has had every opportunity at a chance. And the people who paid for the horse, the donors, are notified BEFORE this happens.
Communications have not improved as far as I can tell, I have emailed PS's in the past asking about horses and do not get replies.
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Post by TashGaia on Apr 3, 2008 21:05:08 GMT -5
lorsadoon...
Tiny Tim is fully supported by his owner/adopter/whatever Ember found a home Yasu is with me Huge Grant is with Diane and is supported by her
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