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Post by Tockita on Apr 2, 2008 18:28:48 GMT -5
KO I am just listing horse I knew were around a LONG time.
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Post by pnp4kidz on Apr 2, 2008 18:32:11 GMT -5
In order to help fix things, we don't just need to throw money in the pot... sometimes we need to look from the inside and work our way out. sharpen the saw... not just saw away all day. no one has time to stop and fix the problem the first time, but we all have time to go back and fix it after it breaks... let's look at the expenses, where they go, what the money is spent on, and see if we can identify areas where we can help.
we all seem to be supporters of the CBER mission... let us help.
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mothergoose
Groovy Groom
Together we can make a difference!
Posts: 33
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Post by mothergoose on Apr 2, 2008 19:10:30 GMT -5
Great Idea pnp, We can't help with a budget if we don't know where the budget needs to be fixed. Minor adjustments are needed and it is certainly attainable to make this work. CBER is a great dream and should not fail because of a bankable adjustment. Isn't that what CBER is an Organization? Then organize.
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Post by gsdmom on Apr 2, 2008 20:07:35 GMT -5
I think more people might be willing to donate if there was more accountability with the funds. I know I have donated several times and then seen the same horses saved by the FOB's. Just a balance sheet showing where the donations are/were used would go a long way towards answering questions.
Kathy
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Post by countrygirl on Apr 2, 2008 20:22:43 GMT -5
I suppose adding my 2 cents is worth just that. We can all speculate as to what really happens with the money but unless we get some direct answers, we will never know for sure. I do think that since the people on this board are the most likely to be the ones to offer help, it would be really nice to get some answers. We certainly have a right to some honest answers - Yes I think we have a right since it is OUR money that is paying for these horses. Asking the question, with honest intentions of wanting to help is not a crime. And people should not get bent out of shape by others asking honest questions. As we all know, Sam, and maybe Wendy, are the only ones who can actually give us the answer. Hopefully one of them will eventually offer some info so together we can help strengthen CBER and continue to save horses. If through assessing the situation we are able to sharpen the saw, the horses win in the end. I too have always wondered where all the money goes. Taking a realistic at the look at the situation, and speculating at what MIGHT be, here is what I see. At $100 per horse and assuming 1000 horses got adopted, like pnp says, cber brings in at least $100,000 per year to support CBER activities. I have assumed all along that CBER donations have paid to buy all the shelters, fencing, etc. to get Camelot up to the point where CBER horses can have a place to go. That would include buying the noble shelters, buying panels, feed buckets etc. In addition to that, I would assume that CBER funds are also used to pay for all the hay, grain, shavings, feet, medicine etc. If done properly the books should reflect the separation between the items paid for by CBER donations, and costs associated with Camelot. Money going to Camelot for QT, and all QT expenses should be covered by Sam personally. Any unpaid expenses by horses who were abandoned would then go back under the CBER care and be covered by the CBER bank account. If this is true, I would also think that the books reflect that CBER actually owns the assets they paid for. If Camelot owns them, then Camelot most likely would have paid for them and could charge CBER for their use. Camelot brings in $300 per horse for at least 1 month. The $300 goes to Camelot, not CBER. If you look at just COST, not pay for time, labor, etc. it does not COST $300 per month to keep a horse on your own facility. Once the fencing, shelter etc is in place, the actual cost is feed, feet, medicine, shavings etc. I would say, at the most, $200 per month covers the actual care costs assuming no major illness. Of course if she charges for her time, which is more than fair, then that would add to the costs. But...the $300 goes to Camelot aka Sam, not CBER. Most of the horses are supported by the people adopting them. As with any rescue some of them are going to "fall through the cracks" and end up being supported by the rescue. It would appear that there is/should be sufficient money for that. Lets assume that over the last year 20 horses had to be fully supported by CBER. If you look at COST only, 20 horses x $200 per month = $4,000 per month. 20 horses for a year would cost $48,000. IF CBER brought in $100,000 and had to pay $48,000 to care for unpaid horses it still should have $52,000 remaining from the $100 per horse. Of course all of this is speculation. But the question remains. Where does all the money go? Maybe there are more horses left unpaid for and supported by CBER than anyone realizes?? Even IF all the money went to get Camelot set up originally, are CBER funds still going to support Camelot? Please remember that I am saying IF the funds went to get Camelot set up. Obviously I have no way of knowing that. It would make sense but who knows. I am certainly NOT starting any rumors or trying to cause trouble. Just trying to make sense of the $$. The question remains - how many horses does CBER rescue and support per year and what expenses does CBER have? Sam, are you willing to help shed some light on the subject?? One more thing, back to the original email. We also need to be realistic. Having a horse put down, even by a bullet, is much better than having it go to slaughter. It is a sad fact that there are many, many more horses in need of a home than there are homes to go to. I would much rather have them euthanized than shipped. It is very sad, especially when they are young and healthy, but unfortunately the fact is that many horses have no other option. And people can not ruin themselves financially to save a homeless horse. Unfortunately that is why I haven't been able to offer much help for awhile now. Of course I also think euthanasia should be only used as a last resort option. MTA - I also think this lack of accountability or answers to the "where does the money go" question has probably been the one biggest thorn in the side of CBER. I truely believe that if people had a better understanding of how the money is spent, donations would flow in much more freely. It is this single question that has stopped A LOT of donations.
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Post by afinenettle on Apr 2, 2008 20:30:12 GMT -5
ummm...I dont know where the 1000 horse quota came from that people are multiplying by 100....but I dont think that is speaking of the activity on the feedlot that we see. Otherwise CBER would be bailing almost 3 horses every single day of the year. I dont observe that activity. Am I missing something?
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Post by pnp4kidz on Apr 2, 2008 20:38:11 GMT -5
I can't put my finger on it this second, but here is a snip from Sam's blog in early Jan... >>>Since 04 3,000+ horses have LIFE because of you and CBER. that is 1000 per year... but I saw a figure of over that for 07 recently... I'll keep looking.. perhaps Bookie can tell us?
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chrisw
Super Pooper Scooper
Posts: 267
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Post by chrisw on Apr 2, 2008 21:01:38 GMT -5
Are the horses that have been "adopted" from CBER been given away or sold ? I don't think the horses that have been saved should be put down.....there must be someone somewhere that can take them but I wish a list of horses that need to go now would be listed so we can work on it now!Please let's at least try to find them homes first before talking of putting them down.
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Post by afinenettle on Apr 2, 2008 21:11:36 GMT -5
I can't put my finger on it this second, but here is a snip from Sam's blog in early Jan... >>>Since 04 3,000+ horses have LIFE because of you and CBER. that is 1000 per year... but I saw a figure of over that for 07 recently... I'll keep looking.. perhaps Bookie can tell us? Well I dunno...they aren't coming from the feedlot website....maybe some group saves that were donated to through CBER? Like a herd or several dozen herds....
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Post by Tockita on Apr 2, 2008 21:23:23 GMT -5
Yeah so is that 04, 05, 06, & 07?
There were a lot of horses adopted straight off the lot in 05 & 06. This last year has been slower.
Even if you use 750 thats 62 horses per month, or 15 a week. That sounds really high for many weeks last year.
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Post by pikzeedust on Apr 2, 2008 21:31:51 GMT -5
My biggest question at this point is; if 1000 horses were adopted last year at a $100 CBER fee per horse what was the $100,000 spent on?
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Post by Tockita on Apr 2, 2008 21:34:47 GMT -5
I do not think 1000 horses were adopted, but thats just me doing mental math.
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NanciK
Super Pooper Scooper
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Post by NanciK on Apr 2, 2008 21:49:51 GMT -5
YOU GUYS ARE WAAAAAAAAAAY OFF ... go here and count the number of horses having adopting dates in 2007. I count 230 CBER horses adopted in 2007. Look at this list: www.columbiabasinequinerescue.org/DEF-HorsesList.asp?PageType=AdoptedSomeone else, please double-check and post the number you get here. Thanks. Let's use that 230 number just for grins ... that would be $100 x 230 = $23,000. That's less than $2,000/month.
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Post by pikzeedust on Apr 2, 2008 21:55:40 GMT -5
does this include horses that were bailed as well?
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NanciK
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Post by NanciK on Apr 2, 2008 21:56:29 GMT -5
Yes, I believe it does. It's ALL horses adopted from the feedlot.
Even if there are some missing .... still ... 230 is WAY OFF from 1,000.
So assume the list is missing, say, 30% ... it would still be less than 300.
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Post by pikzeedust on Apr 2, 2008 22:00:10 GMT -5
Sounds like a financial overhaul is in need... doesn't the $100 per horse 'fee' go to cover those horses that CBER is sponsoring at Sam's? that would pay her costs for feed... at 1000 plus horses adopted last year... This is why I'm wondering where this figure came from.
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Post by earlybp on Apr 2, 2008 22:12:35 GMT -5
I think it was simple math, from Sam's blog, just dividing the 3000 horses since 04.
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Post by Tockita on Apr 2, 2008 22:13:52 GMT -5
I think she was taking the 3000 horse figure and dividing by 3 years. But it is actually 4 years, and prior years there were more horses saved. I think they were at 1500 early in 2006... but I am not sure.
Anyway I think there has been a dip in the # of horses bailed for many reasons, less supporters, cost of QT...
I guess the best way to get the answers would be to ask Sam or Marlene directly. but 300 sounds much more accurate for last year then 1000 did.
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Post by bridgetah on Apr 2, 2008 22:44:02 GMT -5
I think it ridiculous to hide anything from any of you ALL. This organization has been supported by loving and supporting people "for the love of the equine" but to do away with because of money I find appauling. I know this because this is how I started my rescue by helping others with thier "issues". I do understand it is not cheap nor is it for the weak, but to not be up front and honest with the ones who supply most of the support is like a slap in the face. Why are the ones with the money always the last to know anything, and it seems they are the ones that keep depositing more when asked? I envy all of you who can keep doing this but I feel CBER owes you ALL an HONEST Explanation, not another "just a mistake or misunderstanding". CBER is a great dream and can still be for many horses, but unless it is run as a business with answers for every actions, it will fade as the many others have in the past. Such a shame. I agree that things keep getting muddier but why? If it is too much for Sam then why not ask for help publically? Why only be the BODS or Volunteers? Are they supplying all the monies needed--Not. We all need to be made aware of situations before they become mountains that are too high to climb. _Just my opinion_ Thanks for letting me vent Where do you get the idea that there was any attempt to hide anything. Non-profits communicate w/BODs all the time. I don't expect to be privy to their communications and it really sucks that someone betrayed that confidence.
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Post by djrepp on Apr 3, 2008 0:41:49 GMT -5
mothergoose, are you saying you have a rescue? Do you have a website?
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Post by Admin on Apr 3, 2008 0:59:39 GMT -5
Not all horses that have been adopted are listed on the CBER website. I know, I have several that are not there.
Let me set the record straight for myself. This IS NOT a CBER witch hunt thread. What I have said on this post are my own opinions ( doesn't matter what rescue ).
Solutions:
Financial transparency - In - Out which IS required by all 503c non-profits. Then there is no question.
Open communication - We can't help if we don't know.
Perhaps a fund set up ( or foster care ) to support a horse who's adoption falls through.
This IS about finding a solution.
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Post by cutiepiepmu on Apr 3, 2008 3:14:45 GMT -5
I agree- not all horses are listed. I know Malibu nor the others that were adopted by friends are listed. 8 in all.
Sara in WA
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Post by watermarkfarm on Apr 3, 2008 9:54:16 GMT -5
I believe the public is entitled to request a copy of a 501(c)3's past year financial statements. It would be interesting to look at this as a way of better understanding CBERs income and outgo and how it all works.
I get newsletters from a number of nonprofits (mostly horse rescues like Redwings) who publish their year-end statements right in the newsletter. It gives you a really good idea of their annual budget and how they meet it.
Katie
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Post by pnp4kidz on Apr 3, 2008 10:04:42 GMT -5
The numbers are from Sam's own posts... the numbers on the CBER website from years one and two were WAY lower, in the 200 range, btw... and they started mid year in 04, so at this point, you are looking at 3000+ over half of 04, all of 05, 06 and 07 ok, so even at the very simple math that is 1000 but Sam did a post some time in Jan saying that 07 was another 'record year' and they saved something like 1500 last year... anyway, I don't know how they get sold thru CBER and not listed, that is a BOD thing I guess, how they do behind the scenes stuff...
and on a staff thread recently Sam replied to one of my posts that CBER is finding homes for 12 a day right now (I'll go check that number.)
and sorry, I 'm not on line all the time, evenings are with kids, and one does homework on my laptop...
those financials should be ready... ?
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lisa
Groovy Groom
Posts: 27
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Post by lisa on Apr 3, 2008 10:42:49 GMT -5
I believe the public is entitled to request a copy of a 501(c)3's past year financial statements. It would be interesting to look at this as a way of better understanding CBERs income and outgo and how it all works. I get newsletters from a number of nonprofits (mostly horse rescues like Redwings) who publish their year-end statements right in the newsletter. It gives you a really good idea of their annual budget and how they meet it. Katie Here is the Tax Return from 2006 for CBER its on public record. www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2006/201/570/2006-201570223-035b87d5-9.pdf
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Post by chamiyo on Apr 3, 2008 10:43:05 GMT -5
My horse that I got through Cberwas not listed.
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Post by TashGaia on Apr 3, 2008 11:42:20 GMT -5
What are these horses that were not listed, please? Names, dates, breeds, etc.
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Post by Tockita on Apr 3, 2008 11:54:28 GMT -5
I'm sure there are horses that people like Heidi and Kerrie took that weren't listed. Horses Like Casino, that might have been "saved" but not had a fee attached.
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Post by cutiepiepmu on Apr 3, 2008 13:12:48 GMT -5
Malibu - ShireX filly - it listed her as 2, but she was only MAYBE 6 months Gucci - Quarter Pony Cross - Mare - bay with a stripe and had just had a foal pulled off her Durango - Tri color paint with feet that were so chipped and horrible he could barely walk. Argus - Bay QH - Nice stout guy - I believe he has a hock issue and can BUCK - but is a sweetie. Fritz - QH weanling I believe all were adopted in 2005 and early 2006 I need to go back and figure out the others as far as names, I can't remember what the lot names were! Sara
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NanciK
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Post by NanciK on Apr 3, 2008 13:44:57 GMT -5
My horse that I got through Cberwas not listed. OK, you can add your horse to the total ... and 69 more ... and that's still only 300 in 2007. Your point is?
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