IS THIS LEGIT?

[lisam]

I agree cybercat- lets put it to bed.

I'm confused by this statement--do you mean this discussion? I think it's very informative, and there has been no name calling or mud slinging. Most people are discussing it very rationally.

Why would we want to end it? Nothing has been resolved yet.

Since CBER solicits funds on this board, I don't see why donors can't ask for information on this board.

Beth has always been a staunch supporter of CBER. It's not as though she's "out to get them", and I find it somewhat belittling of some to dismiss her questions out of hand.

[lorsadoon]

tashgaia said:

lorsadoon...

Tiny Tim is fully supported by his owner/adopter/whatever
Ember found a home
Yasu is with me
Huge Grant is with Diane and is supported by her

OK then, just who is left for CBER to support? Shera?

[countrygirl]

Another question....Are the unadopted CBER horses at Camelot funded with CBER donations or does Camelot support them? Do the other foster homes get any kind of support for the horses they are supporting?

[mothergoose]

Quote:>
CC: [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]
> From: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: Fundraising - URGENT
> Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:50:49 -0800
> To: [e-mail]
>
> THis is an ideal opportunity to explain. CBER has not paid me since
> Nov 06. CBER could not pay both Cindy and me so I stopped being paid
> hoping to survive off QT. CBER used to pay me $1000 but again has
> not since 06.
I get $300 for QT horses. The profit I make is on average $25 a head
> after living and operational expenses. This is very basic and on a
> good month without problems with tractor tires like the one I just
> replaced for $712. A good month is rare if never as farms constantly
> repair.
> 30 horses x $300
> +9,000
> -2,000 Joaquin
> -1,000 Hay
> -250 farrier care
> -250 Rent
> -288 Electric
> -75 Dumpster
> -700 Truck
> -125 Employee taxes
> -200 Farm Insurance
> -300 Antibotics
> -1,000 LOC Camelot
> -1,000 Camelot CC (pays for grain, truck repairs/upkeep, tractor
> repairs, tires, Jettas repairs and gas........)
> -1,000 Personal CC payments (pays for food and non-horse related gas)
>
> Expenses = $8,188
> Profit = $812
That leaves me a whopping $812 profit if I am not supporting CBER
> horses and paying for their farrier bill which has been the case for
> months. This is if I have 30 paying horses and I have had about 20
> borders since Nov and supporting 11 so you can now understand the
> pickle I am in.
>
> I wonder how many would work as hard as I do for so little profit?
>
>
> Sam

**This was an email recently sent to me anonymously**
What is happening to this organization when there are secrets around every corner? CBER is supposed to be a NON-Profit organization. So why are some complaining of making a profit or not? Is that possible? Or legal?
These are questions that we as an organization need to have answered. Right? Or am I stepping out of bounds again?
I know I have to live in my budget so why doesn't CBER?

[mothergoose]

I understand that someone asked me if I had a webpage regarding my rescue? The answer to that is yes. We are a community outreach rescue that helps those that need feed, shelter, and advice or vet care, transportation, etc. We have been able to help our community this past year during the flood by offering pasture on higher ground and feed to those who locally needed it. Our webpage is: www.outreachrescue.tk Those horses we list are a combination of rescues from CBER and other outer lying communities. We have worked with a local trainer to help some with issues, and have funded fundraising for CBER as well as other business's in regards to rescues.
I along with my daughter have supported this rescue with the help of our community of equine owners on our own. We feed three times a day each horse (as many as 11) and have worked along the side of our Sheriff's dept. in rescuing also.
We have asked for donated Vet care, farrier services as well as rendering service when needed. Not one animal EVER received a bullet in the head or was sent to slaughter. We have PAID to euthanize them instead to show them someone cared!
It is not easy but it can be done.
I am not picking on CBER, just feel there needs to be more honesty to thier supporters then what they have been given. We are all in it to help the horses, but not all of us stretch the truth to get it done.
again, just my opinion.

[bcfilly]

Seems to me that somebody here might've bitten off more than they can chew.... which we've been all guilty of at one time or another, myself included

Understandedly people get upset when $$ and horses lives are at stake however I do not believe that those involved and being held responsible here were motivated by greed. I do believe that accountability must be taken and communication opened up....
Because of the dire situation many of these horses face without rescue and the lack of time available to secure happy endings for all I believe that many individuals involved have let resentment grow in response to the frustration of it all and perhaps in doing so haven't been able to reach out, communicate or conduct themselves or their business in the most appropriate manner.

Now I'm neither bashing or sticking up for anyone here but rather trying to gain some sort of insight to a rather sad situation and beseeching all those involved/running cber rescue to put their personal feelings and woes aside in order to clear up this mess and get things rolling for the horses again.

[stormlady]

Most non-profits pay their staff a reasonable salary and wage. They get quality staff because of this in order to stay afloat. Some very small 1- or 2-person operations, like perhaps yours Mothergoose, may operate solely on a volunteer basis, but that is neither required nor the norm for non-profits. Just because the non-profit doesn't make a profit doesn't mean that nobody working for that non-profit for a living is allowed (or expected) to make a living wage. Quite the contrary. Some of these pay very good wages/salaries in order to attract top-quality staff. United Way of King County, for example, is a very large non-profit, yet it paid out over $9 milliion dollars in salary/wages/benefits in FY2006-2007 (http://www.uwkc.org/aboutus/AuditedFinancialFY2007.pdf). It is unreasonable to expect that Sam or anyone else SHOULD forego a living for the sake of a job that takes all their time and energy. The fact that some people choose to do that is a CHOICE, but does not make the people who don't do that wrong, dishonest, or greedy. It is probably not sustainable in the long term to rely on people who are not making a living to maintain a venture on the scale of CBER.

[pnp4kidz]

the difference stormlady is that those people are paid a salary, and pay taxes on that etc... and pay their own expenses from their salary... and it is all out in the open.
their income, and their expenses are in the open.
the concern here is that it appears that there are both income and expenses that are not related to the business of saving horses from CBER, which tells adopters that they must pay QT fees directly to the president, no one else...
and no horse leaves the lot until paid for,
and yet, the statement to the IRS says that CBER buys horses, vets, trains rehabs them, THEN offers them to the public..
that is a discrepancy.

I also got this anonymous email from Sam... explaining her income... which appear to be on the CBER expense reports... but in any case... it's clear she lives on the 'required' QT with her... and honestly... if I had $800 left over at the end of the month I'd be jumping up and down. sorry, but I make a lot of money, and run a rescue, and there is NOT $800 profit after all my bills, rent, utilities, food, and all my expenses... I certianly wish that was the case.

[countrygirl]

If Sam makes her living off of the rescue, which everyone suspected all along, it should have been disclosed. Trying to keep it quiet makes it look like you are trying to hide something. Then your creditability goes down the tubes. Having it all out in the open, like most non-profits, would have been much better.

There is nothing wrong with making a living supporting what you believe in. In this case, horse rescue. And I agree that in the long run, if you can support yourself, you can continue to do what you love, and help the horses. It is a win/win situation. The problem is when you try to hide the truth from your supporters. It costs money to run a rescue. So be honest and let people know that you get paid for what you do. In this case, a lot of people have left CBER because of the deceit. This hurts the horses and once you loose your supporters, you loose everything. JMHO. Honesty is ALWAYS the best policy.

[Tockita]

countrygirl said:

If Sam makes her living off of the rescue, which everyone suspected all along, it should have been disclosed.

She used to get paid something and it was said when she did. According to that last email she has not been "paid" since 06 but has been sometimes ahead and sometimes in the hole by doing QT.

[lorsadoon]

tockita said:

countrygirl said:

If Sam makes her living off of the rescue, which everyone suspected all along, it should have been disclosed.

She used to get paid something and it was said when she did. According to that last email she has not been "paid" since 06 but has been sometimes ahead and sometimes in the hole by doing QT.

If part of the perosonal expenses that are listed on the last email are a $700 truck payment and a $1000 fpr a personal credit card, she is still being taken care of.

The problem here is she is mixing her personal finances and those of CBER together.

I do not care if she makes a decent salary running CBER, but it should be listed. It should be listed as an expense. And her bills should not be intermingled with the business.

[lorsadoon]

And by the way, if I have $812 profit at the end of the month, I would be jumping up and down for joy.

My husband and I work hard to take care of our horses. And this winter has been tough. And the price of hay is just going up amd up. I get NO nice vaction this year, because every dime we get is going toward stocking up on hay. But that is the way it goes sometimes. It is my choice to have horses. Sometimes I wonder if it is good one, but it is still a choice.

[djrepp]

So, there is a filly sitting on the lot who is going to die without a loving person coming along. She has potential and will make a nice project. Her price is reasonable. She looks to have not received much care from her previous owners. What a shame.

[djrepp]

I also want to add that posting a private e-mail may be in violation of proboard rules. Perhaps one the the adminstrators can look into this.

[tinkerslady]

So I am guessing yall think they should just bag it. Maybe Chuck can keep getting horses and Sam can quietly rescue one or two. You know, I have NEVER in my life heard so many people WINE and COMPLAIN about how a rescue is run! This is NEW guys! When have you EVER heard of a rescue PURCHASING horses? There are a lot of ins and outs of this that are still being worked out. So maybe they will ONLY bail if 3 months are paid UP FRONT!
And by the way in that email she was referring to boarding horses making a profit - not CBER. Different beings altogether but you would know that if you weren't all jumping on the throw sh*t at CBER band wagon. WOW! I really thought this board gave a d**n about the horses but I guess I was wrong so well see yall later! This is such BULLSHIT! I won't be back. When I rescue another horse it will certainly not be from here.

[countrygirl]

Tinkerslady, it isn't about whether or not Sam makes an income or what CBER pays. It is about honesty and disclosure. A lot of the problems that have faced CBER in the past (and currently) is becuase of a lack of disclosure. Intentionally trying to hide the truth. Whether it be about finances, or euthanizing horses, or whatever. THAT has been the one thing that has caused so many people to leave. Like I said, if you loose your crediability, you loose supportors. If you loose your supporters, you loose everything.

I would hope that lessons can be learned and CBER can go forward and continue rescueing horses for years to come.

[earlybp]

Yep, I'm with Country Girl here.

Tinkerslady, it doesn't matter whether you rescue a horse here, or somewhere else. What matters is that you rescue horses. Thank you for doing your part!

[pnp4kidz]

I'm sorry Kelly,
this is about trying to keep CBER afloat.
there have been so many things hidden it has caused trouble for those of us who TRY to defend them... and then we become embarassed when the truth 'outs' and we were wrong..
we have been trying to get the whole truth out for years now.
there was a huge thread about this two years ago, many threads...
and Sam was ADAMANT that she owned the Jetta, CBER paid nothing towards it, same for the trailer... etc... these questions were asked then, and 'cleared up', but apparently they weren't clear.... as they are there again!
if the corporation of CBER gets shut down for co-mingling of funds and for coersing adopters to doing QT at the single required site which happens to be the source of the president's income...
then, ALL of the horses lose.
we don't want that to happen.
why is that so bad?
we want it clean and running forever!!!

[michellep]

You know, all truthfullness set aside for a moment. Without supporters like Kelly, who work so hard to save these horses and put out their hard earned money for those horses that are bound for slaugter where would this all be? Yes facts need to be disclosed. But in the end if there is nobody left on this board or nobody that supports CBER who suffers in the end? Its the horses that will suffer and be slaugtered. Without people like Kelly willing to loan me her hard earned money I never would have gotten Turtle. And you know what, in the end I was so over the top thrilled to be brining home this new horse that it didnt matter to me who got paid what or when. Only that he was taken care of to my satisfaction, and Im very hard to please when it comes to my "kids". So hats off to Sam for all that she did to make sure that Turtle was taken care of. So if you want the true facts, go straight to the source. If you dont get the answers you want or feel are truthful then go elsewhere. But remember who everybody on this board is doing this for, its not Sam or CBER, its that lost soul thats been dealt a rough life by somebody that thought they would make a quick buck and send that horse to slaughter. The horses are helpless, they deserve a chance. I know that I havent contribued lots of money for this cause, but when Im financially able to I do.

[emjay]

OYE VAY.

[Admin]

Inurement/Private Benefit - Charitable Organizations

A section 501(c)(3) organization must not be organized or operated for the benefit of private interests, such as the creator or the creator's family, shareholders of the organization, other designated individuals, or persons controlled directly or indirectly by such private interests. No part of the net earnings of a section 501(c)(3) organization may inure to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual. A private shareholder or individual is a person having a personal and private interest in the activities of the organization.

[Tockita]

So Sam is getting the QT money (just like everyone else who has done QT has.) She charges more then some used to but looks like she is using much of it either on costs of operation, and upkeep of the equipment. If the items are strictly for QT use, then they should be paid out of the QT money.

I think there is some mingling between the QT money and CBER, but looks like it is to feed the QT horses that overstay and items the rescue should be paying for, if the rescue own and uses them. But should she should go back to taking a salary and let the rescue take over the QT? Or start allowing QT in other places?

I mean Deb charged the same price for QT without as much responsibility, Shawna is charging the same, and has also required QT at her location. So it is right or wrong?

[jenm]

The issue is the fact that QT is MANDATORY according to Sam, and Camelot Farms is the QT facility. This is inurement. Regardless of whether the funds are being used to upgrade the facilities, the facilities do not belong to CBER, they belong to Sam's family. Hence, Sam and/or her family are personally benefiting from the QT fees.

[jessiegirl1981]

Things are starting to come to light and its about time. I have it from an inside source approx 80 horses are missing. Unsure of where they went but they have no adopter listed and are no where to be found. I know of bailed horses that were sold for profit with fob money. There is also proof some were sold back to Chuck!! Wayne obtained approx 20. What the hell!!! I am only now learning these things. I am disgusted. Also sometimes horses were intentionally not bailed with money that was intented for them. The money was used for more saleable horses.

[bridgetah]

jessiegirl1981 said:

Things are starting to come to light and its about time. I have it from an inside source approx 80 horses are missing. Unsure of where they went but they have no adopter listed and are no where to be found. I know of bailed horses that were sold for profit with fob money. There is also proof some were sold back to Chuck!! Wayne obtained approx 20. What the hell!!! I am only now learning these things. I am disgusted. Also sometimes horses were intentionally not bailed with money that was intented for them. The money was used for more saleable horses.

Who is your "inside source?"

Which horses are missing? What are their names and when were they listed/adopted?

What is your problem w/Wayne obtaining horses? Were these horses whose adopters had abandoned them? If so, where should they have gone? It is my understanding that he's a trainer? If so, why shouldn't he have them?

What, exactly, do you think should happen to abandoned horses?

As for buying a more placeable horse, what of it? I always designate a horse for my donations but I also add that CBER can use the money as they wish. Rescues always have to choose those animals that they think can be placed.

[jessiegirl1981]

Cozumel never had an adopter for one. I can get a list. I have a problem when a horse is saved and is to be rescued (Passion) and another horse looks to be a better sale( I do mean sale) so they are saved with that money. The horses were not adopted they were taken and sold. I would not feel the way I do or post the things I am lightly. I have 3 cber horses in my barn. I understand the mission I dont like the lies. I was a volunteer and a very big supporter. I was the one in the beginning raising money on twr/abr. I am not out to get anyone only the truth. I am brokenhearted about the whole d**n thing and sickened

[jessiegirl1981]

As for abonadoned horses how can we as supporters help if they are given to him without anyone being told?

[jenm]

It's not an issue if the horses are going to be trained and re-homed. It is an issue if they are shot or sent back into the slaughter pipeline.

jessiegirl does have a point, the people who actually sent in the bail to save the horses should have been told the horses needed help before they were sold or given away to someone who is known for taking horses and shooting them. If the horses were indeed given to Wayne then an update should have been provided on their listing on the CBER website.

In all fairness, someone could have come back to this board and mentioned an adoption fell through and at least given the people who care a chance to try to help the horse again. We have to remember that these are not horses that CBER bought with money they had saved up in the bank. These are horses that were bailed because people sent in money specifically to save that horse.

[TashGaia]

FYI

About an hour ago someone posted on ICERS that she has seen Wayne come to get horses from CBER three times in the last three weeks and that his trailer was full...

forums.delphiforums.com/ICERS/messages?msg=391.71

[dustyboots]

tashgaia said:

FYI

About an hour ago someone posted on ICERS that she has seen Wayne come to get horses from CBER three times in the last three weeks and that his trailer was full...

forums.delphiforums.com/ICERS/messages?msg=391.71

Wait....what??? I'm a little confused here...